Talk:Mormonism and Nicene Christianity

February 2020 NPOV concerns

RODavis0 (talk) 03:55, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[NPV] The very title of this article asserts that Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Christians, as it sets up a contrast between the theology taught by that church (you refer to it as Mormonism) and all Christianity. You then base that difference on the fact that the church does not accept Nicene Christianity (clearly a specific form of Christianity or you would not specifically identify it as "Nicene"). This displays a non-neutral point of view that to be a Christian one must adhere to a very specific doctrinal interpretation of the scriptures contained in an extra-Biblical document. The article also falsely states that the church does not believe in Bible inerrancy. The church clearly accepts this principle as defined on the Wikipedia page for Bible inerrancy. The church actually takes the official position that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact." The problem is that no original manuscripts exist, but your interpretation of what scripture says is not the arbiter of what constitutes a Christian; this is not a neutral point of view. The adoption of scriptures that you do not accept as the Word of God does not disqualify members of the church from being Christians. Some Christians accept the Apocrypha as scriptures, are you saying these people are not Christian or does that just apply to the scriptures accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? This is not a neutral point of view. Different Christian denominations do have different rituals. Are Catholics not Christians because they "cross themselves" or Methodists not Christians because they do not "cross themselves?" What about the use of rosary beads? Priestly vestments? Shakers or Holy Rollers worship rituals? Are you arbitrarily setting yourself up as the arbiter of what constitutes valid and invalid Christian rituals? Again, this is not a neutral point of view.

- I agree with the above user. Christianity is defined as simply a belief and a following of Jesus Christ; even to just accept Him as Lord and Savior. I can only affirm what the user above has stated, as there are no other points I have to add. Webcoolz (talk) 08:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• It seems ok to me. Do you have a better name suggestion? Epachamo (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

- Name suggestion: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Christianity; or the Church of Jesus Christ and Christianity. <smaclass="autosigned">— Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.36.199.65 (talk) 19:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm weighing in here with my two cents. "Mormonism" refers to those sets of beliefs universally espoused and accepted by all religious entities who trace their origins back to Joseph Smith. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the largest of those denominations, this article does (or should) cover all whose organizations trace their origins directly back to the core beliefs of Mormonism as found in the movement established by Smith. So confining the renaming of this article to willfully and deliberately exclude the other sects mentioned, who, by definition, ascribe to the core beliefs or Mormonism, would, by that measure, be more than slightly disingenuous. Rename the section referring particularly to the COJCOLDS, by all means, but to rename the entire article for that church when other branches of Mormonism are discussed herein is not a good idea, IMHO. --Jgstokes (talk) 21:36, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

* @Jgstokes: Maybe a more politically correct title should be "The Latter Day Saint Movement and Christianity"? Epachamo (talk) 00:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

* @Epachamo: This is not and never has been about political correctness, but religious correctness. Unless it would be considered more reasonable to move the content about other religions in the overall movement to either their own article covering the same subject, or to individual articles covering each sect, and leaving the current content about the LDS Church here on its' own, it would be religiously incorrect to name this article after the largest sect of this movement while it covers information about other sects within this movement. I know we may have had our minor differences initially due to misunderstood mass changes in the paast, but I've really come to respect your tireless efforts for the most part, so I wonder why your apparent inclination is to not assume good faith regarding an earnest concern on my part in this particular matter. Sorry if I ever gave you a reason to believe my intentions were anything but made on the basis of good faith. I'll try my best do better going forward in that particular respect. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Jgstokes: Please forgive me. You are an excellent editor who I have nothing but respect for, even if we have had minor differences (and in part because of those differences). You have never given me any reason not to believe your intent, and it is abundantly clear that you act in good faith. In fact, I think you would make an excellent administrator, and would support you if you sought it. Using the term "politically correct" is a charged term and was obtuse on my part. It was not meant to throw shade on you or your opinion at all. I actually agree with everything you said in your previous edit, I pinged you because I value your opinion, as someone who has been editing a lot more than I have, and who is much more familiar with the MOS. My suggestion was an awkward attempt at suggesting a possible name that would include your (and my) objections to favoring a particular sect within the Latter Day Saint movement. Epachamo (talk) 14:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Epachamo: Nothing to forgive on my end, as far as I'm concerned. You are right that the "politically correct" term has taken on a very new connotation as recently as within the last few days, which is probably why my knee-jerk reaction was to unnecessarily bristle at your usage of the term. I regret that misstep on my part. As far as the remainder of your comment, my applying to be an administrator here on Wikipedia is something that can be addressed at another time and in another setting, but suffice it to say here that presently my time and circumstances might preclude my ability at this point ot take on that added role here. I'm honored that you'd support my nomination, however. One thing that keeps me coming back to Wikipedia is knowing that my work here matters and makes a difference. That said, back to the topic at hand here, I think that renaming this article in the manner that you suggested would probably be a good idea, assuming the consensus here is in favor of that. --Jgstokes (talk) 02:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thinking this over this last month, I think at the very least "christianity" should be replaced with "mainstream christianity" (see Mainstream#In_religion). Hopefully that would allay the initial concern of @RODavis0: and @Webcoolz:, and I don't see it as being controversial. I think changing the "mormonism" part will require a change to the WP:NCLDS, note there is an active discussion going on right now with reference to that. Epachamo (talk) 14:06, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@Epachamo: Are you thus proposing the article title to be "Mormonism and mainstream Christianity"? or something in place of "Mormonism?" I took a cursory glance at the discussion over there, but I wasn't sure.

• @Ehler: Yes, my proposal is "Mormonism and mainstream Christianity". Changing the word "Mormonism" would require a change to WP:NCLDS. Latter Day Saints vehemently consider themselves Christian, but vehemently consider themselves outside of the mainstream, rejecting "abominable creeds" and all. I think this name would be satisfactory to Latter Day Saints as it doesn't imply that Latter Day Saints are on the "outside" of Christianity or not believers in Christ. I also think the name would be satisfactory to the vast majority of non-latter day saint "Christians". Epachamo (talk) 18:09, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment. For what it's worth, there is no article for Mainstream Christianity—it redirects to Nicene Christianity. As previously noted, there is Mainstream#In_religion. It's often not a good idea to use terminology for X or Y (in an article named "X and Y") that does not have its own Wikipedia article. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 01:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Good Olfactory: Do you feel that "Mormonism and Nicene Christianity" would be better? Re-reading the WP:NCLDS, I think the Mormonism should be replaced with "The Latter Day Saint movement", since it deals with more than just the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Epachamo (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

• If a change were required, I would probably use "mainstream" over "Nicene", as I do think it's probably clearer, despite there not being an article with that name. Ultimately, I'm not sure that there is a problem with the current use of just "Christianity". Mormonism makes great efforts to be part of Christianity, but it does not make efforts to be part of mainstream or Nicene Christianity, and the article discusses some of those efforts. So the current name may be entirely appropriate. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:06, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Several points I will make:

A change *is* required. The present name is so POV as to be a disgrace to Wikipedia.

This section was started over "and Christianity". Discussion of changing "Mormonism" is out of scope and should be dealt with in another separate section; let there be one problem on the table at a time.

Nicene Christianity I opine as the best solution thus far proposed. Honestly, however, I'd prefer "other Christianity" because the article address differences with not only Nicene Christianity but also with other existing types of non-Nicene Christianity.

While also probably out of scope, methinks "and" sounds non-encyclopedic and would propose "Mormonism's idiosyncrasies within Christianity" or the like.

Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@Epachamo: @Good Olfactory: @Jgstokes: @Ehler: @Lipsio:

After reviewing WP:NPOV, WP:MOSLDS, WP:NCLDS I agree that Mormonism and Nicene Christianity should be adopted. Trinitarian Christianity and Mainstream Christianity both redirect to Nicene Christianity showing that this is the consensus name for these terms. We are trying to say Comparison of Mormonism to non-Latter Day Saint Christian denominations but WP:NPOV calls for bias in the title to balance against clarity. Mormonism and Nicene Christianity strikes this balance and meets Wikipedia requirements. Jared.h.wood (talk) 22:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@Epachamo: @Good Olfactory: @Jgstokes: @Ehler: @Jared.h.wood:

That's reasonable. Would anyone be willing to request a move? Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Done. Jared.h.wood (talk) 01:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Resolved

 – The title has been changed and the POV tag removed.

Jared.h.wood → JHelzer💬 00:27, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Edit warring in violation or ignorance of MOS:LDS

Two IP editors have recently performed major edits to this article, apparently with a view to making the text clearly partial to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These edits are, I believe, in violation of the relevant Manual of Style page (MOS:LDS) — or possibly done in ignorance of the said MoS page (since these IP editors may be new to Wikipedia and unaware of the way things are done here). Since active discussion has been underway on the talk page (Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints) for some time — with no suggestion, btw, of any consensus emerging anytime soon — between editors who support the current MoS recommendations and other editors who insist the current recommendations are insulting to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and need to be changed ASAP, I don't think it's appropriate for people to be unilaterally changing the language in Mormonism and Nicene Christianity in the absence of a consensus to change the MoS page. I am inclined to impose pending-changes protection on the article, so that changes by IP editors must be accepted by an admin or other person with the "pending changes reviewer" right before they become generally visible; however, since I have been heavily involved in the MoS talk-page discussion on this matter, I would prefer if someone else do this (assuming, of course, that others agree with the idea of pending-change protection in the first place). Comments? — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 04:48, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• The current manual of style inaproriately makes it unreasonably difficult to refer to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in ways they choose to be refered to. This is not making the article partial, but correct. When a group of people asks that people stop calling them by a name that they reject on theological grounds and asks that they be refered to as either "members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Latter-day Saints", continuing to refer to them by a name they have chose to no longer embrace and instead have chosen to use the name that they have always prefered, continuing to refer to them by a name they no longer accept makes no sense at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:39, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Reference placement and parentheses

@Good Olfactory: Here you moved the reference from inside the parentheses to outside it. I think parentheses are treated slightly differently than other punctuation in this case. My reasoning for putting it inside was that the reference applied only to material within the parentheses, therefore the ref tags should belong just before the closing parenthesis based on my reading of MOS:REFPUNCT. Thoughts? --FyzixFighter (talk) 13:01, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I could be wrong. After reading MOS:REFPUNCT again, I'm not sure. In any case, I have changed it back. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Nobody except Mormons use the term "nicene Christianity"

Nobody except Mormons use the term “nicene Christianity”. This change is not even able to maintain its naming scheme consistently through the article. There is also no “nicene Christianity” page to link to, as the term is only being used on this page to create confusion about what should be titled “differences between Mormons and Christians”. 71.223.156.177 (talk) 14:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

The above comment was originally added to a closed renaming proposal. Since closed proposals are considered to be archived and are not supposed to be modified, I have moved the comment into a separate section. If the IP editor (or anyone else) objects to the article's current name and wants to propose a rename, please read the instructions on requested moves and open a new move request. Before doing so, however, please carefully study the earlier comments on this talk page. Please also note that "Nicene Christianity" does exist, as a redirect to "Nicene Creed". — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 18:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC)