Talk:Sámi shamanism

Relation to Finnic mythology article

I have seen that since today, a merge template suggests merging this article with Finnish mythology article.

The Finnic mythology article seems to be a collective article, which has sections with {{main}} templates pointing to other articles like Finnish mythology, Estonian mythology, Sami religion etc.

I conjecture, the main question is: how diverse are the mythologies of the various Balti-Finnic peoples? If they are diverse, merging is not appropriate, at least not in the long term.

For example, how different are Finnish and Sami mythologies? I have just one source at home discussing similar questions:

Ingold, Tim (1997). "Work, Identity and Environment: Finns and Saami in Lapland". In S. A. Mousalimas (ed.). Arctic Ecology and Identity. ISTOR Books 8. Budapest • Los Angeles: Akadémiai Kiadó • International Society for Trans-Oceanic Research. pp. 41–68. ISBN 963 05 6629 X.

In this collection, several authors examine how various Arctic peoples build their identity, and how this is related to their environment. Sami (compared to Finns), several Eskimo peoples, Orochon, Sakha, Aleut are examined in this aspect.

Also the cited author compares Sami to Finns how they build their identity and how they are related to their environment.

Let us see some quotations from this book:

Land and landscape

Ingold 1997: 63–65:

I come now to the third level on which we can ask how participation in reindeer work affects the formation of personal identity: this is in terms of people's relation with the non-human components of their environment, principally animals and land. Here I believe there is a quite basic contrast to be drawn between Finnish and Saaami attitudes. For the Saami pastoralist, reindeer herds constitute a repository of wealth and value, and their reproduction is the primary objective of husbandry (Paine 1972). Among the Finns, by contrast, the reindeer has always figured as a secondary source of income an economy centred on farming and forestry. Social relations are anchored in the possession of land, and not in animals which are regarded as but means for converting natural pasture into meat that can be either sold or consumed directly. Reindeer, like corps, are grown and harvested—in other words, they are farmed. The repository of wealth of the Finnish farmer is his reserve of standing timber, held either on a private, bounded plot, or as a fixed share of common forest. Indeed in may ways, trees serve for him the same function — as a store of value — that reindeer do for the Sami. Where the latter is a builder of herds, the former is a farmer of the forest (Ingold 1983b).

This contrast, moreover, has implications for the way the forest itself is perceived. This may be expressed in terms of a distinction between land and landscape (Ingold 1983d:153–154). By landscape I refer to the morphology of the environment through which a person moves in the practical business of life. For the Saami the forest is a landscape in this sense, and its significance is relative to different kinds of tasks that draw people into it. Thus if a man is away from home, and you ask of his whereabouts, the answer will depend on what he is doing: if he is mustering reindeer, then he is in the 'reindeer-forest',; if he is trapping ptarmigan, then he is in the 'ptarmigan-forest',; if he is collecting berries, then he is in the 'berry-forest'. Yet as they go about these and other activities, people leave impressions in the landscape, even as the landscape impresses itself in the form of their own experience. Particular individuals are identified with their own paths, each a record of countless journeys made (ingold 1976:96–97). And the remains of a fire may call up memories of who stopped there to warm themselves, and what they were doing at that time.Through the inscriptions of innumerable traces of this kind, the forest — as a landscape — becomes a fabric into which is woven the lives of past and present generations. A man may be known, and remembered, by constellation of places and paths associated with is name, each linked to some significant component in his biography, and adding up to a record of who he is and where he has been. In this way the forest as a whole enfolds the history of a community, and to engage with it perceptually is itself to perform ab act of remembrance (Ingold 1973d: 152—153).

Whereas 'landscape' denotes the world as it is known to those who move about in it, by 'land' I mean to express the idea of a universal substrate upon which (rather than within which) people work. The land, in this sense, isa kind of 'lowest common denominator' of the natural world. In Finnish this idea is conveyed by the term maa, which can refer just as well to the earth in which corps and trees are rooted as to the surface of the earth n its global extent, and equally to the territorial domain of a farm or a nation state. From the perspective of the Finnish farmer, then, the forest is not a landscape so much as a realisation of the inherent productive potential of the land, consisting in essence of the trees that grow on it. Accordingly, one kind of forest is distinguished from another not in terms of what people are doing there but in terms of the dominant type of tree — generally spine, spruce or birch. Where timber is a commodity, such distinctions are of considerable significance. Moreover the history of any stand of the forest is intimately bound up with the history of the house to which it belongs: here, an open-felled plot testifies that its owner has sold out to financea move to the city or clear a debt to his siblings in the contet of inherietance; there, a stand of overaged trees speaks of a miserly old farmer who is reluctant to relaise the value of his assets, or ofthe failure of his heirs to reach a settlement among themselves. thus, given an experienced eyeand a good deal of local knowledge, one can tell much about the changigng fortunes of a house from the condition of its forest.

To sum up the contrast I have drawn here: for the Saami the forest is a domain in which lives and identities are inscribed, for the Finns it is a resource to be appropriated and transformed. Linked to this is a more general contrast in attitudes to the natural environment. Among the Saami, the environment is seen to lay down, in its temporal rhythms and the spatial disposition of its features, a course to be followed rather than a resistance to overcome. One works with the world, not against it. The Finnish farmers whom I came to know took a much less benign view of their environment. They would forever complain about the harsh, god-forsaken land in which they were condemned to live, about the long winters, and the cold. Life for them is regarded as a struggle in which people pit their energies against nature, in competition both with their neighbours and with themselves. It is through such struggle, in the record of achievement in the face of adversity, that personal identities are forged.

Footnotes [also belonging to the quoted text]

Proposal

Although the text cited above does not deal directly with mythology, rather it is discussing the identity-building of contemporary, living people, but still, I propose an over-cautious attitude: not to merge the article with Finnic mythology.

Physis (talk) 05:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

A vote for "No" for merging

I vote no for the merging for the follwoing reasons: 1) the Finnic mythology page is very poor and needs a lot of work; 2) I know a some amount of Sami mythology but very little of Finnic mythology, however the Finnish Kalevala I know is not part of Sami mythology. This it shows that there is some divergence - possible a great deal of it - between the two mythologies; 3) Moreover, the other finnic links, Finnish mythology, Estonian mythology, and Mordvin mythology have not been requested to be merged with the Finnic mythology page. In addition, if you read their mythologies, they have little in common under the present wiki pages.

I vote *No* for the above reasons.

In a week's time, if nobody responds or removes the tag, I will remove it myself has this thread is preaty old. Thanks and Take Care... Dinkytown (talk) 23:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank You very much for that — I support the removal of the {{merge}} template. I am not accustomed yet to wiki administrative things, thus I did not dare to remove the template myself. Best wishes, Physis (talk) 22:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Physis - I've done it before but only after a period of time. Anyone can place one and anyone can remove one, just courtesy for a time period. If the person cares, they would be watching this page anyway. If they are not watching, they shouldn't care (in my opinion...). Let's give it a week and see what happens - then no one can complain - take care... Dinkytown (talk) 00:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

non sequitur

"Animal Gods. Aside from the Bear Cult..." What about the Bear Cult? What does it include? There's no link here to a separate article. Poor article structure. 4.249.63.105 (talk) 00:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Neopagan template

I am removing this as there are traditional Sami people who maintain their ways and it's not appropriate to lump them in with Wiccans and such. On that template "Contemporary Pagan" is used as synonym for "Neopagan". If you want to write something on Neopagans who consider themselves connected to the Sami, put it in its own section. That is, if you can source it to WP:RS and WP:V standards. Then put the template or one like it only in that section, not up top. Thanks. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The label "Contemporary Pagan" or "Neopagan" does not include exclusively syncretic religions or religions just inspired by old Pagan religions. They encompass both syncretic religions such as Wicca, reconstructed European religions, and reinvented indigenous European religions such as the Mari or the Chuvash religions which base on unbroken tradition. As you can find, the term "Neopagan" is used by many of the sources which describe the revival of these religions (for example Shnirelman's Christians Go Home! A Revival of Neo-Paganism between the Baltic Sea and Transcaucasia). --Schwert von Feuer (talk) 11:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Title

The relation between shamanism and the "other" parts of the belief system seems for me to be a sophisticated question in generally in ethnology. I lack knowledge how this problem is present in the case of the Sami, but still I propose a more generalized title, for example something like "Belief systems among Sami peoples". (At the same time, the title refers to possible diversity among Sami themselves.) Physis (talk) 05:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The best way to resolve this would be to rename the page "Sami religion" (since all shamanistic belief systems are religions, but that the converse do not hold, the most general term should be used) and then have the shamanistic side of the religion as a sub section, preferably in relation to the noaidi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.114.202 (talk) 18:30, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support rename/move to "Sámi religion." May also want to combine with Noaidi - CorbieV^☊ 23:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support rename/move to "Sámi religion." May also want to combine with Noaidi. The FA fi-wiki page linked to this is actually called Sami religion, and includes other parts than just shamaism. It is mainly based in book sources, only published in Finnish. --Tappinen (talk) 06:01, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Noaidi

The Sámi shamanism article is only 7k bytes in size and receives 100 visitors daily. There is also the Noaidi, a Sami shaman, that is only 8k in size and receives 35 visitors daily. There would be benefits in merging Noaidi under its existing subheading in Sámi shamanism. William Harris • (talk) • 22:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 31 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus for a page move, but no consensus for what the target should be. Doing something a little unusual here. The RM has been relisted a few times, and while there's clear consensus for a page move, the discussion is not clear on whether the title should be Sámi religion or Traditional Sámi religion or some other variant. Editors in the discussion have given differing views for what the title should be, including editorial changes to make to the article(s) as a result, and resisting has not generated further discussion. So while there is agreement that the title of this page should change, the name at this stage is not clear. Rather than initiating a fresh requested move, please ping me if further discussion on this talk page occurs produces an agreement, and I'll review my close accordingly. Thanks, (closed by non-admin page mover) Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 14:38, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

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Sámi shamanism → Sámi religion – See discussion on Talk page Wiki-uk (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Wug·a·po·des​ 00:36, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support - I've raised this issue on the Shamanism page in the past, and the objection was based on the name of this article. It's mostly those writing from outside the culture, non-Indigenous anthros and those in the Neoshamanism, Neopaganism and Occultism fields, that seem to prefer the current term. It's used a lot in those writings, but not by those in the living Sámi communities and cultures. The actual traditional people in Sápmi who are being called "shamans" don't, and didn't, call themselves that. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 20:51, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support, Wiki should strive to use the commonest, most neutral term as opposed to exoticizing a culture. Shaman is not a Sámi term. Yuchitown (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2019 (UTC)Yuchitown
• Support per Corbie and Yuchitown. Indigenous girl (talk) 02:19, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support - From a purely semantic perspective, "religion" is also just a far more accurate and encompassing term than "shamanism", which is merely used to describe a type of religious practice. To refer to a religious structure by the slightly nebulous anthropological descriptor for one of its components seems neither logical, nor helpful. Pliny the Elderberry (talk) 06:07, 1 August 2019 (UTC).
• Support per all of the above. Wiki-uk (talk) 17:29, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
• Support per all of the above. --Rosiestep (talk) 11:39, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
• Move but elsewhere, strongly suggest Traditional Sámi religion instead. The article "Sámi religion" should be on all religions practiced by the Saami, which is mostly Lutheranism to my knowledge, a la Religion in Finland or Religion in Norway. Compare Ancient Greek religion (Zeus, etc.) to Religion in Greece (Greek Orthodox Church). SnowFire (talk) 20:17, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @Wiki-uk: Would this alternate target be acceptable? SnowFire (talk) 20:33, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, that would be fine. Thanks. Wiki-uk (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I would also prefer Traditional Sámi religion, per SnowFire. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:25, 6 August 2019 (UTC) See comment below. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Ok with me, too. --Rosiestep (talk) 22:22, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
• Comment Move to Sami religion and include information about Lutheranism being a prominent religion among Sámi today. Contemporary information is good, and Wikipedia shouldn't portray Sámi people as living in the past. Yuchitown (talk) 15:58, 7 August 2019 (UTC)Yuchitown
  • Hmm. We could do this, but it seems reasonable to have an article dedicated to strictly the traditional practices anyway. Maybe two articles? I was thinking that perhaps Sámi religion could be a short disambiguation-page like concept article that included links to all of Laestadianism, the Finnish Orthodox Church (at least based on the Skolts article), as well as Traditional Sámi religion. SnowFire (talk) 17:44, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Having Sámi religion cover all the contemporary religions on the same page is also worth considering. The material here and at Noaidi - neither are well-sourced enough for standalone articles, and Yuchi's point about most being Lutheran now is well-taken. I think there are also syncretic approaches that would be better-served by having it all in the same place, especially as it's not always clear-cut which practices are wholly historical, which have survived, and which have been revived to some extent. There are also survivals that have been modernized to suit contemporary cultures. That can all be addressed more accurately by having it in the same place. Let's evaluate what's already at Sámi people#Religion, and see what we have to work with on this front. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Sámi people#Religion only needs to have the summarized content, what is there now could be merged to this page, and then be renamed to Sámi religion. Wiki-uk (talk) 13:35, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Agree. Let's move that here, and just leave a summary and link there. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 00:15, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
• Relist comment Additional discussion of what to do with Sámi religion would be helpful in determining consensus. Wug·a·po·des​ 00:36, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Per the above, here's my idea of what Sámi religion would look like if the current shamanism article is moved to Traditional Sámi religion: Sámi religion (sandbox draft). SnowFire (talk) 21:46, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I think Wiki-uk's proposal works better. We can have Traditional Sámi religion link to the section on this page. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 00:15, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
• Suggestion: Should it not be Religion in Sápmi? If Lutheranism etc. will be included in a more overall overview as discussed above, In don't think it can be named as "Sámi religion". I also noticed that the Sápmi article doesn't have an entry on religion at all. - Wiki-uk (talk) 05:43, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Sámi Assembly of 1917 which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Article title, part 2

The last requested move seemed to generate consensus that the current title was not good, but wasn't moved anyway because of disputes over where Sami religion should redirect to, or if it should be a separate article, or disambiguation page, or what. None of that means that the current title is good, though. Would there be any objection among page watchers if I just boldly moved this page to Traditional Sámi religion? This is a common formulation and much better than the rather inaccurate "shamanism" IMO. SnowFire (talk) 22:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@SnowFire: - go for it! Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:45, 7 April 2022 (UTC)