Talk:Great Lent

Liturgical year

Does anyone fancy working on WikiProject Christian liturgical year? Gareth Hughes 11:08, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Do we need two seperate articles?

Does there really need to be two seperate listing for Western Lent and Orthodox Lent? Zach82 02:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

As someone who has belonged to both traditions, the nature of the seasons has diverged considerably; they are observed differently and have different dates. Wsbhopkin 13:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, there is only one page for Easter Wsbhopkin 13:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This is true: but I think the same reconing applies: the two celebrations are so manifestly different that to do them both justice they should be treated seperately. The article on Orthodox Easter should be titled "Pascha" (with perhaps a brief discussion and a link to it in the [Western] Easter article). MishaPan 19:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. In my experience converts tend to exaggerate the differences based more on the convert’s own ignorance of the beliefs and practices of his previous sect. The article mentions differences of habit and ceremony, but it doesn't have anything to say on the difference of significance or underlying theology. If you could, perhaps, provide any genuine differences outside of "Golly, out Lent is a couple weeks longer!" then perhaps it might justify a seperate article. Zach82 17:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

If I may be so bold, speaking as someone who studied western liturgics before becoming Orthodox myself and beginning the study of eastern liturgics (23 years ago), the difference is quite a lot more than simply the length of the Fast (which, by the way, is not the case; both traditions fast for 40 days, the difference is how they count the 40 days). In addition to that rather minor difference, the entire structure, theory, and theological approach is different between the two traditions. In some cases, diametrical opposites exist (West: no "Alleluias"; East: more "Alleluias" than normal. West: Ash Wednesday [with the Imposition of Ashes]; East: Clean Monday [with the admonition not to mark one's face, but to wash one's face], etc.). Great Lent, in fact, provides one of the most interesting formats for studying the differences between the two traditions. Orthodox Great Lent is such a rich subject, it could occupy numerous pages, and really deserves a separate treatment--and a much more detailed one than this page currently provides. MishaPan 01:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Pray go ahead and propose changes to this article then. You are the expert after all. As the article stands Great Lent and Lent aren't sounding all that different- when you really get down to it they are both seasons of penitential preparation for Easter, sectarianism aside.Zach82 04:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, you're both right. They are the same concept - a season of penitential preparation for Easter, but there's so much to say that it might be overloading one page to put the practices of East and West in a single page.InfernoXV 06:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The two articles should be merged. The "considerable differences" between Eastern and Western Christianity are incredibly exaggerated, especially when Roman Catholics and Anglicans have more in common with Eastern Orthodox than with Baptists. Some folks here claim that they "converted" from "Western Christianity" to Eastern (or vice versa), but they fail to mention which Western denomination they came from. If you're coming from, say, Pentecostalism, then yes you'll encounter considerable differences when you approach Orthodoxy. And it also depends on which Eastern denomination you're "converting" to (Chalcedonian Eastern Orthodox? or non-Chaldedonian Oriental Orthodox?) If you're going from Catholicism or Anglicanism to Chalcedonian Eastern Orthodox, you'll encounter minimal differences. In fact, some Orthodox Christian denominations in parts of Romania and western Ukraine recognize the Roman Pope as their Christian primate. These denominations are called "Greek Catholic", and they operate as a semi-autonomous branch of the Roman Catholic Church (the Roman Catholic Church is hoping to incorporate all Eastern Orthodox Christians into the Catholic Church under the same model, and was also going to take in some of the more conservative Anglican denominations under the same model).

But the fact that Orthodox Christians are under-represented in Anglo countries contributes to the perception within the English-speaking world (and as a result, English-language Wikipedia) that Eastern Christians are "mystic", "exotic", and "different". This is especially true for the United States (not so much for Britain) which geographically far from predominantly Orthodox countries, and where Evangelicalism dominates.

As for the word "Pascha", it is just the literal Greek-language translation of the word "Easter", and -like the French word Paques or the Italian word Pasqua or the Castilian word Pasqua- is derived from the Hebrew word Pesach. I really don't understand why Wikipedia insists on calling Orthodox Easter "Pascha" when Pascha is just the Greek word for Easter. Skyduster (talk) 04:22, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

More like Easter is the english word of Pascha... :P Besides, who wants to use Easter it just calls for all the detractors to bring up pagan roots. "Easter is from ester!" or whatever. Anyway, Pascha is what it is called by most Orthodox, not Easter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.114.111 (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Well in French, Italian, Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese, Dutch, and Danish, the word for Easter is similar to the Greek one, with the pak- root, which was taken from the Hebrew Pesach. Only English and German are different. Just another example of how semantics are misinterpreted by English speakers to create false differences between Eastern and Western Christianity. I mean, how fucking stupid is this that we have a separate articles for "Lent" and "Great Lent". Skyduster (talk) 17:27, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand, the English translation "Passover" is really congenial. :-) --131.159.0.47 (talk) 13:52, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

No. The articles should be merged. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 13:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Calendar or chart needed

I am confused by when Meatfare Sunday and Cheesefare Sunday are in relation to Great Lent (is Cheesefare Sunday the day before the Monday on which Great Lent starts?). Also, I had understood that fasting WAS permitted in the Orthodox tradition on Saturdays (but not Sundays), and that that was why Saturdays (but not Sundays) were included in the count of forty days. So it would be good to have some kind of calendar or chart showing the two mentioned Sundays before the start of Great Lent (or was it three?), the special meanings of the Sundays within Great Lent, and perhaps coloring or shading the days of Great Lent itself. Thank you. Ifdef 16:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Meatfare Sunday (also called the Sunday of the Last Judgement) falls two weeks before the beginning of Great Lent. It derives its name from the fact that it is the last day on which the laity may eat meat (Orthodox monastics never eat meat). The week that follows Meatfare Sunday (i.e., the week before Great Lent) is called Cheesefare Week, because even though no meat may be eaten, dairy products may be consumed any day of the week (including Wednesday and Friday, when they would normally be forbidden). Cheesefare Week ends with Cheesefare Sunday, the day before the beginning of the Great Fast (Cheesefare Sunday is also known as Forgiveness Sunday, because on this day everyone begs forgiveness of his neighbor in order to begin the Fast in peace). MishaPan 19:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

With regard to fasting on Saturdays, in the early Church there were different practices in different places: In Rome they fasted on Saturdays (as shown by a letter of Pope Innocent I to Decentius, 416 AD); at Constantinople, as in the East generally, Saturday--with the sole exception of Holy Saturday--was never to be a fast day (in the strict sense). The practice of the Orthodox Church was unified at the Council in Trullo, Canon LV (692 AD), confirming the practice of Constantinople. In effect, this means that the Lenten fast is lessened on Saturdays, but not abrogated entirely. MishaPan 19:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

With regard to counting the Forty Days, this also is a difference between East and West. At Rome, Sundays were excluded from the count. So Lent consisted of six weeks of six fasting days each (beginning the count on Ash Wednesday). But in order to make up the requisite forty, the remainder of Holy Week (including Holy Saturday) must be included in the count. In the East, they count consecutively, beginning on Clean Monday (the first day of Great Lent) and continue without interruption (including Sundays) through the Friday of the Sixth Week, a total of forty days. The next day (Lazarus Saturday) and Palm Sunday are days on which the Fast is relaxed, though not abrogated, and Holy Week itelf is considered to be a seperate fast from the Great Forty Days. MishaPan 19:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. That's a good explanation. With that explanation, I re-read the article, and I guess it does actually say all of those things, though perhaps you made it more clear here. I was thinking that it might be good to have this in the article itself, perhaps in this format (I don't know how to make tables in HTML, but I hope you understand what I mean):

    Sunday       Monday     Tuesday     Wednesday     Thursday     Friday    Saturday

   (some ordinary
    Sunday, not     -- -- -- -- -- (first week of preparation for Lent) -- -- -- -- --
   part of pre-Lent
   period)

    Zaccheus
    Sunday        -- -- -- -- -- (second week of preparation for Lent) -- -- -- -- --

    Publican and
    Pharisee      -- -- -- -- -- (third week of preparation for Lent) -- -- -- -- --
    Sunday

    Prodigal
    Son Sunday    -- -- -- -- -- (fourth week of preparation for Lent) -- -- -- -- --

    Meatfare
    Sunday
    (Sunday of    -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Cheesefare Week -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
    the Last                   (fifth week of preparation for Lent)
    Judgement)

    Cheesefare  Clean
    Sunday      Monday  
    (Forgiveness day          day          day          day            day      (Saturday --
    Sunday)       1            2             3            4             5      lessened fast)

    Feast of     day          day          day          day            day      (Saturday --
    Orthodoxy     6            7             8            9             10     lessened fast)

    Gregory      day          day          day          day            day      (Saturday --
    Palamas      11            12           13           14             15     lessened fast)

    Veneration   day          day          day          day            day      (Saturday --
    of the Cross  16           17           18           19             20     lessened fast)

    John         day          day          day          day            day      (Saturday --
    Climacus      21           22           23           24             25     lessened fast)

    Mary of      day          day          day          day            day      (Saturday --
    Egypt         26           26           28           29             30     lessened fast)

    Sixth         day          day          day          day            day      (Saturday --
    Sunday        31           32           33           34             35     lessened fast)
    of Lent

    Seventh      day          day          day          day            day      Lazarus
    Sunday        36           37           38           39             40      Saturday
    of Lent

                <-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --  Holy Week -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ->
    Palm            (Holy Week fast, not part of Great Lent)           Good       Holy
    Sunday                                                             Friday     Saturday

    Easter
    Sunday

Or, just from making up this chart, I noticed that it might make more sense to call Monday the first day of the week, such that each week ENDS with a Sunday. But then, that would make Saturday into the SIXTH day of the week, rather than the seventh, and so that would make the Sabbath (the seventh day) fall on Sunday, which wouldn't make too much sense.Ifdef 16:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

MishaPan, I just re-read your explanation and realized that my chart is incorrect (which is EXACTLY why I think a chart is necessary!) Following is an updated version. Is that one correct now? Ifdef 19:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

    Sunday       Monday     Tuesday     Wednesday     Thursday     Friday    Saturday

   (some ordinary
    Sunday, not     -- -- -- -- -- (first week of preparation for Lent) -- -- -- -- --
   part of pre-Lent
   period)

    Zaccheus
    Sunday        -- -- -- -- -- (second week of preparation for Lent) -- -- -- -- --

    Publican and
    Pharisee      -- -- -- -- -- (third week of preparation for Lent) -- -- -- -- --
    Sunday

    Prodigal
    Son Sunday    -- -- -- -- -- (fourth week of preparation for Lent) -- -- -- -- --

    Meatfare
    Sunday
    (Sunday of    -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Cheesefare Week -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
    the Last                   (fifth week of preparation for Lent)
    Judgement)

    Cheesefare  Clean
    Sunday      Monday  
    (Forgiveness day          day          day          day            day      day
    Sunday)       1            2             3            4             5        6

    Feast of     day          day          day          day            day      day
    Orthodoxy     8            9            10           11             12       13
    (day 7)

    Gregory      day          day          day          day            day      day
    Palamas      15            16           17           18             19       20
    (day 14)

    Veneration   day          day          day          day            day      day
    of the Cross  22           23           24           25             26       27
    (day 21)

    John         day          day          day          day            day      day
    Climacus      29           30           31           32             33       34
    (day 28)

    Mary of      day          day          day          day            day      Lazarus
    Egypt         36           37           38           39             40      Saturday
    (day 35)

                <-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --  Holy Week -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ->
    Palm            (Holy Week fast, not part of Great Lent)           Good       Holy
    Sunday                                                             Friday     Saturday

    Easter
    Sunday

Your first entry "(some ordinary Sunday, not part of pre-Lent period)" is technically correct; though there is one sole Pre-Lenten feature: the Gospel reading on that day is always the account of Zacchaeus from Luke 19:1–10, for which reason this Sunday is referred to as "Zacchaeus Sunday." MishaPan (talk) 18:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, on taking a closer look at your calendar, it seems you should lop off the first week, and make the week following Zacchaeus Sunday the "first week of preparation for Lent", the week following Sun. of Pubican and Pharisee the second week, and so forth. MishaPan (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Noinclude?

When I began editing the article today, it had the <noinclude></noinclude> tags at the beginning and end of the article. Looking at WP:noinclude, I couldn't see any reason why they should be in this article, so I removed them. But I thought I should mention it here in case there was a relevant reason for them being where they were. MishaPan (talk) 18:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Lenten calendar

I will be experimenting here on constructing the calendar for Great Lent suggested above. It may take me some time, so I'm doing the experimenting here rather than on the article's main page.

Great Lent
Calendar of days in the Lenten Triodion

Sunday	Monday	Tuesday	Wednesday	Thursday	Friday	Saturday
Zacchaeus Sunday	Week of the Publican and the Pharisee
Sunday of the Publican and Pharisee	Week of the Prodigal Son
Sunday of the Prodigal Son	Meatfare Week					Saturday of the Dead
Sunday of the Last Judgment (Meatfare Sun.)	Cheesefare Week					Saturday of the Holy Ascetic Fathers
Sunday of Forgiveness (Cheesefare Sun.)	Clean Monday (First Day of Great Lent)	First Week of Great Lent (Clean Week)				Theodore Saturday
Orthodoxy Sunday	Second Week of Great Lent					Saturday of the Dead
Sunday of St. Gregory Palamas	Third Week of Great Lent					Saturday of the Dead
Sunday of the Cross	Fourth Week of Great Lent					Saturday of the Dead
Sunday of St. John Climacus	Fifth Week of Great Lent			Thursday of the Great Canon		Saturday of the Akathist
Sunday of St. Mary of Egypt	Sixth Week of Great Lent				(Last day of Great Lent)	Lazarus Saturday
Palm Sunday	Holy and Great Monday	Holy and Great Tuesday	Holy and Great Wednesday	Holy and Great Thursday	Holy and Great Friday	Holy and Great Saturday

I haven't yet figured out how to display each day as a seperate cell and still have text like "First Week of Great Lent" span more than one cell, so I can't number each day as I'd like. MishaPan (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The Great Fast and the use of the word Holy

I would like to address a concern of mine that has cropped up occasionally concerning language. If one studies the history of the Church one finds that terminology can be a crucial issue theologically. The use of the wrong word can ultimately lead to misunderstanding somewhere down the line, perhaps even hundreds of years later. I have always proposed that Orthodox writers must be exceedingly careful in their terminology when writing in English. Words must have the correct “Meaning” behind them to preserve the theology. Unfortunately, sometimes this comes across as nit-picking. The difficulty often lies in translating from different source languages (Russian as opposed to Greek) and the fact that both can claim strong traditions going back centuries. Never-the-less I think we should always examine the ramifications of the English text we use rather than simple translate from one language to another, otherwise we will end up as the protestants who often base their theological differences on the English texts of scripture while disregarding the Greek texts entirely.

That having been said, I would specifically like to address the usage of the term “Holy” when referring to chronology. In English we often use the terms: Holy Week, Holy Monday, Holy Tuesday, etc. or, as a combination such as “Holy and Great etc.”. But correctly there is nothing “Holy” about the days themselves. Originally these days are called “Great” to signify their high importance. Yes, I know that the Russians use the term “Holy” and that it has become common in English as well. Never-the-less I think we have the opportunity to correct what may ultimately lead to an error of theology. I propose referring to them as “Great” and nothing more. Also, we might consider referring to “Lent” as “The Great Fast” since lent is a Germanic word meaning Spring or Long.--Phiddipus (talk) 19:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

For myself, I would have no problem with saying simply "Great Week" or "Great Tuesday", etc.; it is certainly less cumbersome. Though, since the additional word "Holy" is used in the Slavic tradition, I'm not sure exactly where the difficulty lies. Orthodoxy is not the sole purview of the Greeks. Is a variation in translation--so long as it is in no way opposed to Orthodox teaching--which has been sanctified by centuries of use, necessarily "wrong"? Orthodoxy is not monolithic, and the Local Churches are free to develop traditions and usages of their own, provided they are not opposed to Sacred Tradition (the "Catholic Consciousness" of the universal Church). We are, of course, not referring here to doctrinally essential terms like homoousion, and I don't really see how the addition of the word "Holy" can ultimately lead to an error of theology. I am curious about one of Phiddipus' statements regarding Great Week, where he says that, "correctly there is nothing “Holy” about the days themselves." I was wondering if he could explain what he means by this. They certainly seem to be holy days. No other commemoration is permitted on those days, the Octoechos is completely set aside, and from Great Thursday onwards not even memorial services for the departed are permitted. The text of the Triodion itself states, at Matins on Great Monday:

"The first fruits of the Lord's Passion fill this present day with light. Come then, all who love to keep the feasts, and let us welcome it with songs...." (Sessional Hymn for the third Kathisma.)

As for the term "Great Fast", that is certainly a more direct translation from both the Greek and Slavonic, and removing the Germanic ("Frankish") implications is certainly preferable. A personal pet-peeve of mine is hearing Orthodox Christians use the term "Easter" (named after a pagan deity) instead of "Pascha" (referring to the Lord's Passover). "Great Lent" is, however used in a number of English-language publications, and is linked in so many places throughout Wikipedia, that I would suggest using both terms in the intro, perhaps explaining that "Great Fast" is the more literal translation. When I made my own edits to the article, I chose in general to follow the terminology used by Bishop Kallistos (Ware) and Mother Mary in their translation of The Lenten Triodion (the full title of the work goes on to say, "translated from the original Greek", though they used Slavonic sources also). One tricky aspect of this is that we are not writing to an Eastern Christian audience and so the terms we use would have to be explained in a language that the average reader can understand. And there's the rub: providing accurate information in an understandable format. How far do we sacrifice comprehensiveness for comprehensibility? MishaPan (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

What do we mean when we say “Holy” and what can be “Holy”. We have, for instance, Holy Water which has been sanctified by God or rather, has been restored to its original properties before the fall of mankind. Crosses and Icons can be Holy, People can be Holy, in other words “Things” can be holy. God works through material means – water, oil, wine, bread, in order to touch us physically in a manner we can relate to because we are material ourselves. “Days”, on the other hand are not things, per se, but rather are abstract concepts with no reality in and of themselves. Tuesday comes and goes, it comes and goes differently for where you are than for where I am. In fact, Tuesday and the other days are mere perceptions, abstract concepts having nothing to do with reality itself. So, how can they be holy? Thus we might celebrate significant events on a particular day…which makes the day very important or Great, but holy, no. Besides, we celebrate significant events in the Church on Every day of the year, we celebrate the lives of millions of saints on every day. I guess it’s a matter of precision. It would be like imagining one color to be more Holy than another, once again colors are abstract concepts, actually even more substantial than “days” and yet to imagine a color being called holy would be silly. This is the basis for what I said. Perhaps Wikipedia is not the venue where we should be concerned for such things, but I am always careful, very careful. We might not see right away what theological errors may crop up in the future because of our choice of words but remember, many heresies centered around one word – theandric, filioque, etc, and such words took hundreds of years to do their damage.--Phiddipus (talk) 14:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Phiddipus: Thanks again for your interesting comments. I must say, however, that I have never, ever read any Holy Father or Orthodox teacher who propounds the idea that you propose: that a day, because it is an abstract thing, cannot be blessed, and cannot be holy. It is, in fact contrary both to Scripture and the writings of the Fathers. God specifically blessed the Sabbath (Genesis 2:3) and declared it to be holy (Exodus 16:23, 35:2, etc.). The festivals of the Mosaic Law were holy (Isaiah 30:29, etc.). Even a particular year, the Jubilee, was declared to be holy (Leviticus 25:12). As far as abstract things go: God's name is holy (Psalm 99:3, Psalm 103:1—I'm using the Masoretic numbering here, because I can't find links to the Septuagint); conversation can be holy (2 Peter 3:11), God's Commandments are holy (2 Peter 2:21), and our Faith and our calling as Christians are also holy (Jude 20, 2 Timothy 1:9). You are correct that every day is a holy day—all of creation has been sanctified by the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of Christ—but how do we extrapolate from that that no day can be called holy? On the contrary, according to the Holy Fathers, days and seasons can be blessed and are holy. At the Indiction (church new year) we pray to our Lord "…bless Thou the crown of the year…" (Menaion, Sep. 1, Apolytikion). St. John Damascene, in his Paschal Canon, says the following about the holy day of Pascha: "This is the chosen and holy day, first of sabbaths, king and lord of days, the feast of feasts, holy day of holy days. On this day we bless Christ forevermore." (Pentecostarion, Paschal Canon, Irmos Ode 8). I agree that precision is necesarry when speaking on matters of faith, but we have to be careful about "straining at gnats". Heresy can indeed center around one word, but so can schism. MishaPan (talk) 16:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we should avoid interpreting meanings per 2 reasons: the theological one above (carefulness in choosing words), and the goal of WP (which is only describing things); excepting when there are sources interpreting/explaining. About great/holy, we should count the usage in distinct language families. My input is: in Romanian, which is a Romance language, the Paschal Lent is called the "Great Lent" (Postul Mare), the Holy Week is the "Great Week" (Săptămâna Mare), while the Bright Week is the "Bright/Lighted Week" (Săptămâna Luminată). This, of course, if we cannot find reliable EO English sources, eg. [1]. Compare also official Ru translations: great lent, holy lent, great fast, holy fast. adriatikus | talk 18:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Romanian Postul Mare, I was wondering if Postul should actually be translated literally as "Fast" rather than "Lent", like the Russian Post. MishaPan (talk) 21:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

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Accuracy

I can't tell about the russian tradition, but the Good Friday section for the greek tradition is wrong. The Descent from the Cross and the removal of the soma are part of Royal Hours service in the morning (not the afternoon), and so is the placement of the Epitaphios inside the decorate catafalque at the centre of the church. C messier (talk) 08:04, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

So why not find a source that says so and then correct it? (But if you would prefer to put a draft here for comment, before moving to the main article, please do.) 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 14:27, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman:, I found a source mentioning it is during the morning, but it isn't as detailed as the unsourced description here. C messier (talk) 15:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

@C messier: Almost by definition, any reasonably credible source has far greater standing than an unsourced assertion, so definitely go ahead and replace it. If anybody has better evidence, let them produce it. Thank you for digging out this source, that is always the hard part (but, IMO, the most interesting part) of building a credible article. Once found, anybody can make the citation look pretty – for example like this: (Translation by Google Translate so possibly can be improved?) Any probs, feel free to give me another ping. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

References

This article contradicts itself

The opening paragraphs of this article contain a contradiction. They say that Great Lent is forty days before Pascha, and, unlike in the Western Christian tradition, the Sundays are included. Later, they say that Great Lent begins on Clean Monday, and that this is seven weeks before Pascha. If it is seven weeks before Pascha and the Sundays are included, this would make it forty-nine days. YTKJ (talk) 20:28, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

You are correct! The article internally confounds the distinction betwixt the "Great 40 Days" and the "Great Fast". I'll endevor to dis-entagle that mess.

I thank you for noticing!

PS Actually, the fast is 48 days, not 49, since it commences on a Monday and ends on a Saturday. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 22:10, 12 May 2023 (UTC)