Talk:Greensleeves

Spin

This is amusing, but I'm putting it here. Is this spin really relevant?:

Greensleeves is said by some to refer to the pleasures of alfresco sex and the stains on the sleeves of men who have enjoyed female company whilst thrutching on the grass. cf the female equivalent - Green Mantle. Green the colour of the harlot in medaeival England supposedly worn so as to hide the grass stains. Green also a 'faerie' colour in the likes of the ballad of Tam Lin more here; Thomas Rymer; and pagan Brighid of the Green Mantle.

Many original verses of "Greensleeves" are posted on the Web. Anyone find anything in them to tie to this interpretation? For more a propos avenues to follow try the new External link at the entry. Or a note on separate sleeves worn in the 16th century with a bodice... __Wetman 09:48, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What does greensleeves mean or refer to? is the above correct?? 71.77.207.50 06:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

"The name Greensleeves most likely refers to a prostitute or a lover, since in Renaissance England, green sleeves were worn by prostitute women as a sign of their status."

From this site http://yunyun09.wordpress.com/new-greensleeves-new/

The sleeves were removable for quick undressing, so I read. England used green to identify prostitutes, Nero required prostitutes to have blonde hair. In China they painted brothels blue. Russia it was yellow on their ID cards. Red was also a common symbol for prostitution, red-light district and lady in red.

My Lady Greensleeves" as depicted in an 1864 painting by Dante Gabriel Rossetti.

If it is true is another thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.189.224.92 (talk) 22:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Alfredooscarfernandez 22:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)== Loreena McKennit version... ==

Akashic records show Sir Francis Bacon as composer of Greensleeves, the tune used as Colombe (vestal) march in temple ceremonies. Published at age 19. The writer of Shakespeares' plays, he has a reputation of being a shadow writer. If it was written by Henry VIII then why did it take almost 40 years after his death to appear?

I have a Loreena McKennit version of the song Greensleeves, and its lyrics are a bit different, with chorus as follows:

"Greensleeves was my delight, "Greensleeves my heart of gold "Greensleeves was my heart of joy "And who but my lady Greensleeves."

and she adds another part:

"Thy petticoat of sendle white "With gold embroidered gorgeously; "Thy petticoat of silk and white "And these I bought gladly. "

---

I recognise the first verse (with a small change to the third line "For I have loved you so long") and the chorus printed in the encyclopedia, but not the rest. I remember seeing a version of Greensleeves many years ago which contained the verse:

"Thy gown was wrought in grassy green, The sleeves of satin hanging by, Which made thee be a harvest Queen, And yet thou wouldst not love me'

I also remember a snippet of a verse containing the lines:-

"With pearls bedecked so sumptuously, The like no other lasses had, And yet thou wouldst not love me.'

Does anyone else know these ?

---

There is a recopilation of Greensleeves verses by Lindianne Sarno that includes these. You can find them in the link http://music-garden.net/lecture.html

Alfredooscarfernandez 22:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

MP3

Anyone know any mp3 links for this song?Dermo69

If you have an eMail address, I can send you a version by Lorena McKennitt or a live version by Neil Young, I think I also have the instrumental version sans lyrics by TSO. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 22:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I have over 30 versions of Greensleeves (most of them are guitar or harp versions, sans lyrics) and supoose I could send any of them. It is my first contack with Wikipedia and don't know how to contact you. Perhaps, as the precedent user proposes, by an e-mail account. User alfredooscarfernandez Alfredooscarfernandez 01:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

more about GREENSLEEVES

Greensleeves was also, I think, the soundtrack of the half-hour TV serial film "Lassie", the famous collie dog, in the latest ' 50 and earliest ' 60. Thanks. A. Lahore

What do you mean by the soundtrack? Do you mean it was on the soundtrack, or that it was the theme song? I don't know about a soundtrack, but it is not the theme song. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.193.190 (talk) 16:37, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Greensleeves: We need a definition for this term.

Surely someone has some *real* idea about what this word is referring too? In any case, this entry without such a definition would appear to be rather incomplete.

For instance (and I have no references for this at all), I have heard the theory that the song refers to a gentleman's poor country mistress who works on her farm feeding the cows, etc, hence her green sleeves (from the grass she gathers for the animals). Surely wrong, but why can't we know what is correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.147.151.165 (talk) 23:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

More experience with folklore might cure you of that certainty. I'm afraid that there are many, many, many things in folksongs that remain baffling. Goldfritha 00:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It is said that in England prostitutes were required to wear green. The sleeves were removable for easy undressing. Lady Greensleevs was probally a prostitute but some say she might have been a mistress or concubine.

In other countries prostitutes were also “labeled” with a color, In China the brothels were painted blue. In old Rome prostitutes were required to have bleached blond hair. Red-light district and lady in red is a symbol for prostitution in many countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.189.224.92 (talk) 22:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The Fillmore and Neil Young

Why did Bill Graham decide to play Greensleeves after every concert at the Fillmore? And furthermore, why did Neil Young do the same, and what connection, if any, is known? 71.132.202.29 (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Henry VIII Legend

The legend that Henry VIII wrote this tune is frequently repeated but there's absolutely no evidence that it is true, and there's some evidence that the song is not old enough to have been written by Henry. We should not repeat the legend without noting this. Greg 20:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but just saying it's unproven is a bit unsatisfactory: what evidence is there for an early date? And is there any evidence for the claim that he did write it? Or any idea where the legend originated? I'm sure I recall hearing that Henry claimed to have written it. Anyone happen to know if he really said that or if anyone really said that of him? Could be my imagination. garik 16:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The article currently states 'Henry did not write "Greensleeves," which is probably Elizabethan in origin and is based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after his death.' - if the style of composition is later than King Henry VIII, that only shows that he did not compose the tune, it does not show that he did not write the song (lyrics are written, music is composed).

Pure semantics. There is existing evidence of many of Henry VIII's songs and compositions - and Greensleeves, whether as a poem or as music has never been included among them. If what you're proposing is that he wrote the words, and 30 to 40 years later someone put them to music, a copy of his words would have been required for that to have happened. No such evidence of any such poem exists or has ever been mentioned as having existed. You're grasping at straws. David T Tokyo (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Distinguishing between composition and writing is not semantics. Moreover the statement 'based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after his death' is very misleading, considering Henry personally had extensive dealings with Italian ambassadors in court who were well known for bringing traveling musicians. I've added "likely did not compose", as flatly saying he did not is foolish considering neither side has any concrete or even particularly solid evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerokrist (talk • contribs) 01:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The point you are completely missing is the phrase "until after his death". It's not a question of "traveling musicians" or Henry's "extensive dealings" with Italian ambassadors - it's the simple fact that this style of music simply didn't exist in Henry's lifetime. This particular quote, which you seem to find fault with, has not been scripted by a Wiki Editor, but is a direct quote - word for word - from an existing literary source. If you would like to refute the source, please provide a reliable reference that clearly states that Henry "could" have written Greensleeves. Without that, your edit is highly misleading and as a result I've reverted it.

So that we don't get into an edit war on this, I would ask that you provide the reference that supports the contention that Henry "could" have written Greensleeves here first so that we can make sure it is valid for inclusion. David T Tokyo (talk) 01:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

A literary source does not make your case for you. Both sides are entirely subjective, and even your own quote uses the word "Probably". I have provided a perfectly valid explanation as to how King Henry of all people, due to his well known musical skills as well as his dealings with various Italian musicians could have easily composed the song. Furthermore music is innovative, even without Italian influence Henry could have composed it originally. There is no "literary source" needed for you to use common sense, and if you continue in your arrogant way then God help yhour soul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerokrist (talk • contribs) 18:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

We have have an academic reference that emphatically states "nor did Henry write Greensleeves". As yet you haven't provided a single source to support what you see as "common sense". However, as you seem to think that the case for Henry writing Greensleeves is so obvious, you should have no problems at all in providing suitable references - I look forward to reading them. David T Tokyo (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

@Xerokrist: I agree with David. In the absence of a reliable source that Henry wrote it, we are bound here by verifiability policy to go with that, although we can certainly cite the popular misconception as somewhat apocryphal. To say he "could have" written it is speculation; I could have written many things, but haven't. Whereas "common sense" here sometimes trumps policy, in this case I don't think it does, when academic evidence is available to the contrary. If there is a difference of opinion amongst academics, place feel free to cite it. Until then, "could have" is inadequate for encyclopedic purposes. Rodhullandemu 21:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a Wiki page on Francis Cutting, where it confidently states that he was the composer, as does Frederic Noad in his Renaissance Guitar Anthology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.192.248 (talk) 08:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

First, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Scond, while it is perfectly true that Francis Cutting composed a version (what is calle a "setting") of "Greensleeves", it is certain that he did not actually compose the tune, an anonymous version of which is found in William Ballet's lute book, a source which predates those containing Cutting's very distinctive version. This is already stated in the article, so unless there is some fresh evidence and a newly discovered, earlier source for Cutting's setting, there is no reason to suppose that he actually invented the melody.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the statement 'Henry did not compose Greensleeves'. Even if all the evidence suggests he did not, unless you have hard, indisputable evidence that he DEFINITELY did not, you cannot make that kind of statement. I have retained the source - it is both useful and perfectly acceptable to point out why this is described as a 'legend'. What is not acceptable is drawing your own conclusions and presenting them as fact. Smurfmeister (talk) 10:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I revived it, but reworded to emphasize that it's a scholarly belief/analysis rather than a directly known fact. Why did you unlink Elizabethan? The logic goes "not Henry VIII because in a style that came after he existed", so it seems important for readers to know what that style is to be able to understand the style difference and even know that this style was chronologically later. DMacks (talk) 14:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't unlink it, I just removed the spurious claim. Smurfmeister (talk) 14:09, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I see you fixed the unlinking:) DMacks (talk) 14:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted the text back to what it was. The argument that it can't be *proved for sure* that Henry didn't write Greensleeves it a spurious one - just as it can't be *proved for sure* that little green men didn't land on the planet a billion years ago with handbags full of DNA. A case is built on all the evidence and in this instance all the evidence is that Henry did not and indeed could not have written Greensleeves. The problem with the current text is that it by restricting it to "scholarly analysis / belief" it opens up the possibility that the scholars may be wrong and that Henry might actually have still written it. That is fundamentally wrong - the scholars have no doubt that Henry did not write it, where they are less likely to agree is when exactly it was written, what its origins were etc. David T Tokyo (talk) 07:05, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The fundamental difference is that 'Greensleeves' undeniably exists and that there is a commonly repeated, if spurious, legend around its composition. Your 'little green men' example is not a suitable comparison - what you are talking about here is an entirely invented event. If 'Greensleeves' ITSELF was a legend you might have a point. To use your aliens analogy, a more suitable comparison would be with the Area 51 page. It is far less likely that there was an alien invasion covered up here, but nowhere on the page does it emphatically state 'this definitely did not happen'. Smurfmeister (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

The legend that Henry VIII wrote this tune is frequently repeated but there's absolutely no evidence that it is true, and there's some evidence that the song is not old enough to have been written by Henry. We should not repeat the legend without noting this. Greg 20:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but just saying it's unproven is a bit unsatisfactory: what evidence is there for an early date? And is there any evidence for the claim that he did write it? Or any idea where the legend originated? I'm sure I recall hearing that Henry claimed to have written it. Anyone happen to know if he really said that or if anyone really said that of him? Could be my imagination. garik 16:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The article currently states 'Henry did not write "Greensleeves," which is probably Elizabethan in origin and is based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after his death.' - if the style of composition is later than King Henry VIII, that only shows that he did not compose the tune, it does not show that he did not write the song (lyrics are written, music is composed).

Pure semantics. There is existing evidence of many of Henry VIII's songs and compositions - and Greensleeves, whether as a poem or as music has never been included among them. If what you're proposing is that he wrote the words, and 30 to 40 years later someone put them to music, a copy of his words would have been required for that to have happened. No such evidence of any such poem exists or has ever been mentioned as having existed. You're grasping at straws. David T Tokyo (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Distinguishing between composition and writing is not semantics. Moreover the statement 'based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after his death' is very misleading, considering Henry personally had extensive dealings with Italian ambassadors in court who were well known for bringing traveling musicians. I've added "likely did not compose", as flatly saying he did not is foolish considering neither side has any concrete or even particularly solid evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerokrist (talk • contribs) 01:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The point you are completely missing is the phrase "until after his death". It's not a question of "traveling musicians" or Henry's "extensive dealings" with Italian ambassadors - it's the simple fact that this style of music simply didn't exist in Henry's lifetime. This particular quote, which you seem to find fault with, has not been scripted by a Wiki Editor, but is a direct quote - word for word - from an existing literary source. If you would like to refute the source, please provide a reliable reference that clearly states that Henry "could" have written Greensleeves. Without that, your edit is highly misleading and as a result I've reverted it.

So that we don't get into an edit war on this, I would ask that you provide the reference that supports the contention that Henry "could" have written Greensleeves here first so that we can make sure it is valid for inclusion. David T Tokyo (talk) 01:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

A literary source does not make your case for you. Both sides are entirely subjective, and even your own quote uses the word "Probably". I have provided a perfectly valid explanation as to how King Henry of all people, due to his well known musical skills as well as his dealings with various Italian musicians could have easily composed the song. Furthermore music is innovative, even without Italian influence Henry could have composed it originally. There is no "literary source" needed for you to use common sense, and if you continue in your arrogant way then God help yhour soul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerokrist (talk • contribs) 18:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

We have have an academic reference that emphatically states "nor did Henry write Greensleeves". As yet you haven't provided a single source to support what you see as "common sense". However, as you seem to think that the case for Henry writing Greensleeves is so obvious, you should have no problems at all in providing suitable references - I look forward to reading them. David T Tokyo (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

@Xerokrist: I agree with David. In the absence of a reliable source that Henry wrote it, we are bound here by verifiability policy to go with that, although we can certainly cite the popular misconception as somewhat apocryphal. To say he "could have" written it is speculation; I could have written many things, but haven't. Whereas "common sense" here sometimes trumps policy, in this case I don't think it does, when academic evidence is available to the contrary. If there is a difference of opinion amongst academics, place feel free to cite it. Until then, "could have" is inadequate for encyclopedic purposes. Rodhullandemu 21:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a Wiki page on Francis Cutting, where it confidently states that he was the composer, as does Frederic Noad in his Renaissance Guitar Anthology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.192.248 (talk) 08:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

First, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Scond, while it is perfectly true that Francis Cutting composed a version (what is calle a "setting") of "Greensleeves", it is certain that he did not actually compose the tune, an anonymous version of which is found in William Ballet's lute book, a source which predates those containing Cutting's very distinctive version. This is already stated in the article, so unless there is some fresh evidence and a newly discovered, earlier source for Cutting's setting, there is no reason to suppose that he actually invented the melody.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the statement 'Henry did not compose Greensleeves'. Even if all the evidence suggests he did not, unless you have hard, indisputable evidence that he DEFINITELY did not, you cannot make that kind of statement. I have retained the source - it is both useful and perfectly acceptable to point out why this is described as a 'legend'. What is not acceptable is drawing your own conclusions and presenting them as fact. Smurfmeister (talk) 10:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I revived it, but reworded to emphasize that it's a scholarly belief/analysis rather than a directly known fact. Why did you unlink Elizabethan? The logic goes "not Henry VIII because in a style that came after he existed", so it seems important for readers to know what that style is to be able to understand the style difference and even know that this style was chronologically later. DMacks (talk) 14:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't unlink it, I just removed the spurious claim. Smurfmeister (talk) 14:09, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I see you fixed the unlinking:) DMacks (talk) 14:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted the text back to what it was. The argument that it can't be *proved for sure* that Henry didn't write Greensleeves it a spurious one - just as it can't be *proved for sure* that little green men didn't land on the planet a billion years ago with handbags full of DNA. A case is built on all the evidence and in this instance all the evidence is that Henry did not and indeed could not have written Greensleeves. The problem with the current text is that it by restricting it to "scholarly analysis / belief" it opens up the possibility that the scholars may be wrong and that Henry might actually have still written it. That is fundamentally wrong - the scholars have no doubt that Henry did not write it, where they are less likely to agree is when exactly it was written, what its origins were etc. David T Tokyo (talk) 07:05, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The fundamental difference is that 'Greensleeves' undeniably exists and that there is a commonly repeated, if spurious, legend around its composition. Your 'little green men' example is not a suitable comparison - what you are talking about here is an entirely invented event. If 'Greensleeves' ITSELF was a legend you might have a point. To use your aliens analogy, a more suitable comparison would be with the Area 51 page. It is far less likely that there was an alien invasion covered up here, but nowhere on the page does it emphatically state 'this definitely did not happen'. Smurfmeister (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to ask... who decided Green Sleeves was composed in a style that Henry VIII wouldn't have been accustomed to? I see the opinion of one Historian cited. Not sure that counts as incontrovertible fact which should be stated as bluntly as it has been. The only certainties are that the song, words & tune, "were written and have been attributed to Henry VIII, although this claim is disputed...".

Since neither case can be proved, if you're going to include a source for the opposition, then at least one source of support should also be included. It certainly shouldn't be cited as a "persistent belief", which reads in a very condescending and derogatory way. I shall make such ammendments within a week, unless there are valid reasons why I shouldn't.

I also think it worth noting in the Origins section, that those names resgistering versions of the ballad with the Stationers Company, are members of said company (a guild) who own printing presses and are paying a fee for a licence, which includes a monopoly, to print copies. It's the origin of the term Copyright, the right to make copies... There is no claim to authorship of the ballads; Richard Jones, Edward White, Henry Carr are noted Elizabethan printers/booksellers, the only exception being William Elderton who is a noted Elizabethan Actor & Ballad Writer. Even then, there are misattributions/misreadings of the source material, which I shall edit.

It's also worth noting that the various ballads were written to the 'original' tune, and that the tune itself may have been modified over time to suit contemporary tastes e.g. "A New Courtly Sonnet of the Lady Green Sleeves. To the new tune of Green Sleeves".

Again, I shall make some minor, supportable, changes here unless there are good reasons not to.Storris (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're on about here. Nobody "decided" - the development of styles of music over time is a matter of fact, not opinion. If you really want to get into the nitty gritty of the musical style of Greensleeves (there are actually two) and how the myth of Henry VIII writing it came about, I suggest you read this [1]David T Tokyo (talk) 16:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

"Not sure", or deliberately not reading? I've explained in some detail what I'm talking about - "It's also worth noting that the various ballads were written to the 'original' tune, and that the tune itself may have been modified over time to suit contemporary tastes e.g. "A New Courtly Sonnet of the Lady Green Sleeves. To the new tune of Green Sleeves".

I should also point out that the 'Italian Romanesca', being a form "developed... over time", came from Spain in the early 16th Century. I suggest you read the 'Romanesca' Wiki entry.Storris (talk) 22:47, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

... And I would point out that the earliest record of a passamezzo antico in the UK dates from the 1550's and the earliest record for the eventual compositional style that led to Greensleeves was not until 1577. Hypothesis and a classic Argument from Ignorance (I suggest you read the Wiki entry for that) are not proof. If you have evidence that Henry VIII wrote Greensleeves, let's see it - if not, let's move on. David T Tokyo (talk) 05:58, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I have not and will not claim that Henry wrote Greensleeves. Your continued refusal to read what has been written is impolite at best.Storris (talk) 10:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I have pointed you in the direction of a second source that spells out in detail why Henry could not have written Greensleeves, yet you seem unwilling to engage with it. And you want to label me as "impolite at best" for not having read what has been written. For the record, I have read what you've written and I've already told you that I wasn't sure what you were on about.

You appear to have a bee in your bonnet about the language being used ("a persistent belief") which, again for reasons I can't fathom, you choose to find condescending and derogatory. You seem to have a problem with a Historian's language being "blunt". You have formed a classic Argument of Ignorance ("Since neither case can be proved, if you're going to include a source for the opposition, then at least one source of support should also be included."). You have put forward an argument about a musical style ("I should also point out that the 'Italian Romanesca', being a form "developed... over time", came from Spain in the early 16th Century.") with no regard for the subsequent development of that style, either musically or geographically. You appear to believe that going into the finer detail of the procedures within the Stationers Company somehow throws new light on the origins of Greensleeves and that "there are misattributions/misreadings of the source material" which have obviously passed Historians by but which you will edit.

In short, it seems to me that you want to open up the possibility of Greensleeves having been written by Henry VIII by muddying the waters. However, that's just my instincts as to where this appears to be heading and I could be wrong. Why don't you actually put foward what you want the article to say here first and let's see if there is consensus for it. And please, don't forget to include references. David T Tokyo (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

The 'bee in my bonnett' is due to people using sketchy records to make definitive statements. The earlymusicmuse articles you linked are a great read written from the perspective of a experienced lutist, but an inexperienced historian. He has made mistakes with his citations and as I said in my OP, I will make supportable, i.e. sourced & cited, edits where necessary. I have paid a lot of regard to the further development of the syle... I have seen where it may have entered English Society before the definitive dates that you claim (another definitive statement that sketchy records do not support) and if you were to read further than that single article, you would see that too.

However, it seems I must once more assure you that I am not, have not and will not claim that Henry wrote Greensleeves. As I've already stated, sketchy records would not support such a statement. I will also once more quote "A New Courtly Sonnet of the Lady Green Sleeves. To the new tune of Green Sleeves". THe 1584 version of the Ballad, is not the 'Ric Jones' 3rd September 1580 version of the Ballad, nor is it the 'Edward White' 3rd Septmber version, or any of the other versions registered previously. The ballad is NEW in 1584. So too, it is claimed, is the tune i.e. modified to suit contemporary tastes.

We have no record of the 1580 Ballad or the 1580 Tune, we cannot make any claim about the style in which they were written, or whether or not it is likely, possible, improbable, that they reflected the Earlier Henrician styles. Nor do we have any record of the Ballad or Tune on which those early Registered versions were based.

All in all, definitve statements on this subject, are unsupportable in almopst every regard, one way or the other. I would suggest as further reading the sources cited by Ian Pattaway and the sources cited therein, and of particular interest regarding Lute music in the English Court, this https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/english-renaissance-lute-music- and this - https://walterbitner.com/2018/04/27/the-lute-at-the-court-of-henry-viii/ - and this - https://books.google.im/books/about/The_Early_Tudor_Court_and_International.html?id=fKu21vh_bWkC&redir_esc=y - All the best.213.137.8.6 (talk) 16:00, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Exam Music

Hi there. I wonder why this song is used in the public examinations in Hong Kong (or in other places as well?) during listening tests. Is there a special reason for that? Perhaps we can write a bit about it in the article. LR4087 06:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Who wrote Greensleeves?

"The Singing Waites of England"... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.150.122.122 (talk) 01:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

I think the list of people who have re-recorded greensleeves should be checked, a couple of them im sure have not. Enya for one.

I would like to add that John Coltrane's rendition be among those that deserve mention. His appears on the Africa/Brass LP and subsequent re-releases of that album Armadillo01 02:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

ShowTime Series “The Tudors”

On episode nine of the Showtime cable series, King Henry (Jonathan Rhys-Meyers) is shown composing Greensleeves while pining away for Anne Boleyn. Interesting take on the fabled but unproven folklore...

Dwacon 01:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Unsurprising, given that 'The Tudors' has interesting takes on accepted history. :)

Robbie Burns Lyrics Question

Some years ago I read there was a verse which was said to have been written by Robbie Burns

I recall it as being "I'll be with her or she be thine My fiddle and I t'gither"

but I haven't found anything recently. How come there is no link (or copy) of verses? DDB 13:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Subsequent versions

Is this section really necessary? It comes off as trivia - personally I think the page would be better without it.David T Tokyo 12:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Most of it could be deleted. Songs like "What Child Is This?" are a lot more notable than an arrangement for one film, in this case Carry On Henry. Graham87 13:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to removing it. --Eyrian 14:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Graham, Eyrian - that's three of us broadly in favour and no-one seemingly against. I'll wait a few more days to see if there are any other views. If not, I'll remove the section. David T Tokyo 03:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I see thay someone has now indeed removed the whole section - impetuously ditching the baby with the bath-water. eg I think that the fact that Busoni thought it Chinese enough to include in his Turandot should go in somewhere Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 13:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

In the end I didn't remove the other versions / adaptations - to be honest people seemed to be having too much fun putting them on the page. That said, when someone eventually took the step and deleted the entire section I do feel the page was a whole lot better. As for putting Busoni back in there, surely it's only a matter of time before Vaughan Williams joins him. I think you've reopened the back door for other versions to creep their way back in - let's see. David T Tokyo (talk) 16:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

And why not? The re-uses which are going to stand the test of time and/or are unusual should be in there - there is (IIRC) a WP policy on excessive quoting of refs in 'pop culture' because these tend to be a bit ephemeral and can easily overwhelm the main article. Linuxlad (talk) 11:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we've reached that point now. There's no question that it's a page with two very distinct halves. As people seem to enjoy listing the other versions, my suggestion is that we create a new page where they can be included. We can cross reference the two pages so that they link to each other. Thoughts? David T Tokyo (talk) 06:17, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

GIF-File with Notes used in the German article

Melody of Greensleeves

Got the suggestion to insert this image - so the play-button and the notes can build a unit. But I not really want to make changes in the article. Might someone who knows more about Greensleeves and music do that. --80.128.197.114 (talk) 17:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Musicology

The article states that Greensleeves is in Dorian, and often incorrectly played as natural minor. While this point is understandable - it's easy to mistakenly use a minor sixth in place of the major sixth, and that would be the mistake suggested here, the major seventh in the piece is VERY apparent and establishes the melody as melodic minor (raised sixth and seventh ascendant as compared to natural minor) rather than Dorian (raised sixth and minor seventh). I'm frankly too lazy to find a source for a simple exercise of very basic theory, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.31.146.146 (talk) 03:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

In the version of Greensleeves I learned at school 60 years ago, the raised seventh (F sharp in the notated example) only occurred at the cadences in the 7th and 15th bars. In the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th bars the minor seventh was used (F natural). I would therefore question the notated version and definitely regard the tune as Dorian. At the cadences the F becomes sharpened under the normal rules of musica ficta that operated in the 16th century, and this would not change its modal character.

Indeed, even if the notated version is correct, the tune would still be more Dorian than anything else. By this time the modes were breaking down, and the irregular sharpening of the 7th was one of the ways in which they were doing so. Pitting flattened against sharpened sevenths was something English composers were particularly fond of. The piece would therefore be Dorian with an occasionally sharpened 7th.

In any case, Greensleeves cannot be using the normal melodic minor. The melodic minor has raised 6th and 7th ascending, lowered 7th and 6th descending, so if the tune were using the melodic minor the 6th would only be raised if it were proceeding upwards to the 7th. In fact the 6th is raised throughout the whole tune, even when it is descending - indeed, apart from just before the cadences, the 6th descends to the 5th every time it is used, including very prominently in the 9th and 13th bars. The fact that the tune still uses the raised 6th in these cases means it cannot be using the normal melodic minor.

I would therefore say that, with regard to the mode, the article is correct in all respects. I would also query the source of the notated version. Brumel (talk) 16:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Hm. How very confusing. The article has apparently been modified 06:38, 7 July 2008 (68.29.221.171) to say "Greensleeves is in melodic minor, though modern musicians sometimes incorrectly play it in the natural minor scale instead" instead of stating Dorian mode was correct and natural minor incorrect. I'm sorry I don't understand all of the conversation above - muscial terminology in a foreign language and all that - but were there actually grounds for this modification, then? Shadowcrow (talk) 20:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I would agree with Brumel and the earlier version that states the melody is in the Dorian mode. I find the notated version perhaps not completely trustworthy. I'm going to edit "melodic minor" back to "Dorian mode" for the time being. Can anyone find sources to clarify which version of the melody is the original? Shadowcrow (talk) 19:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

As well as agreeing that all the sixths should be major (as in the GIF above), and that the major sevenths (F sharps) in bars 3,4,11 and 12 should be minor sevenths (F naturals), I'd also like to point out that even if they were left as major sevenths the piece still has minor sevenths descending to major sixths in bars 9 and 13. Although the feel of those bars (don't know the technical term) is Ionian one step lower (F major), as the piece is in G I don't see how it can be interpreted as anything other than predominantly Dorian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.122.152 (talk) 16:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is a question of which melody is correct and incorrect, as there are multiple versions of the melody. Melodic minor would work fine, though the example given is not in melodic minor. The real question is how was the original melody written, which since the song is so old, probably can't be answered. It would be helpful to the article to show a few differing versions of the melody from reliable publications. I would argue that the melody given is not likely, due to the relatively quick change from F natural to F# in the chorus. The Benjamin Britten arrangement is the same, except it does not go to F# in the chorus until the cadence. I have also heard the melody in harmonic minor, with a minor 6th and major 7th. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.193.167 (talk) 15:20, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

After attempting to play the melody and several variations in one mode, it is clear that the melody won't work unless it has both a major and minor 7th. It has to be in either melodic minor or mixed mode(Aolian/Ionian). Operating in mixed mode still allows several variations on the melody however, so it would be nice if we could include some of the first publications of the tune in the article as examples. I'm not very happy with the example given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.193.190 (talk) 17:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

'Greensleeves' Song given in Article

My internet won't let me listen to the song, so does anyone know a link I could go to in order to listen to it? Allismera (talk) 01:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Youtube :-) 82.168.48.122 (talk) 12:58, 15 March 2013 (UTC)dd

Musicology

"Greensleeves is in melodic minor, though modern musicians sometimes incorrectly play it in the natural minor scale instead"

Both links got to the same page (via redirects), so this statement essentially means nothing to the reader (like me) who wants to know what the difference is. I would recommend striking the section and line, unless the links at least go to separate sections of minor scale, or, even better, explain what they are saying here in the article.

The version I know breaks out of the simple whole letter minor scale anyway, in the last "line" of the melody (It uses a C# and a D#). Perhaps it would be better to simply transcribe the melody here, since it's, er, out of copyright by now? Huw Powell (talk) 06:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it supposed to be in dorian mode (C# and Dnat), not in minor? -- megA (talk) 21:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Musicology

Isn't it misleading to simply say that '"Greensleeves" is in Dorian mode' when there is the whole issue of those natural 7's? Isn't that worth mentioning even though musicologists understand it's within the bounds of musica ficta of that time period and doesn't contradict Dorian? There has got to be a simple way to state this without getting overly complex, such as "The melody was originally entirely Dorian mode, sometimes with natural 7ths in some portions. Some modern versions use the natural minor scale predominantly with some natural 6ths and natural 7ths in parallel portions." That would seem to clarify, highlighting those "points of contention" while avoiding the "melodic minor" confusion. Perhaps some musical scores could be presented and bar numbers could be specified.

Interestingly enough, the Dorian audio example never departs to the natural 7 at all, and the natural minor example departs to the natural 6 and 7. Btonal (talk) 00:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)Btonal

it would be good if someone could find some old manuscripts or printings of the song, as the picture showing the melody does not have any publication info from what I can tell, or even a source. I am performing Britten's arrangement of the song, which uses both a natural and raised 7th. I'm interested in finding how the original melody was written, or at least an old version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.193.167 (talk) 15:01, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Pop Culture References

In the pop culture section, both Pepper Ann and As Told By Ginger are mentioned. If these tv shows actually include the song, which they very well may, they should at least include the name of the episode and/or context in which the song is played. There is absolutely no references here. Redland19 (talk) 14:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Since they are unsourced and do not indicate any importance, they're gone. Rodhullandemu 00:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}} Another movie in which Greensleeves can be heard is briefly in The Secret Garden ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108071/ ). The Cook in the kitchen is singing it as Mary passes by to go outside to play.

 Not done It's an old song. Passing references to it are not unusual, and you haven't made a case that this is worthy of note. If reliable sources have mentioned this use, then it may be worthy of inclusion. Until then, sorry, I do not think so. Rodhullandemu 00:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

In the TV series Lost in Space Will Robinson sings Greensleeves while strumming a guitar as the Robinson family sit around a campfire at night. Season 1 episode 4 "There Were Giants In The Earth" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hiyou uk (talk • contribs) 20:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

"Recordings" fails to list the Beatles' "All You Need Is Love," as incorporating "Greensleeves" into the song's stucture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.60.22.6 (talk) 14:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

What Alternate Lyrics?

The article mentions that there are other sets of lyrics, but does not include or link to them, nor does it give the provenance of the existing lyrics (are they thought to be the original or oldest known lyrics, etc.). --Iritscen (talk) 01:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong media file

The currently included media file (greensleeves.ogg) lacks the characteristic Dorian sixths and has minor sixths instead. A correct sample, greensleeves.mid, is available at Wikimedia Commons. I suggest to use the latter or, better perhaps, include both so the reader/listener can hear the difference between the original and the "flattened" version. Wielewaal (talk) 00:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what I was coming to the talk page to say. I think I'll record two new files (when I find an ogg encoder) and put them both on the article, one in dorian, and one in minor Veggieburgerfish (talk) 19:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Why a holiday song?

Why is Greensleeves considered a holiday song? It has nothing to do with Christmas/Winter/New Year, but yet it almost never appears outside of season. Theories? Antagonist (talk) 00:54, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The tune was used for the song "What Child Is This?" This really should be mentioned somewhere in the article. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 03:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

There was a mention, but tucked away at the end in "See also". I've restructured the article a little, and moved reference to "What Child Is This?" higher up. Feline Hymnic (talk) 10:23, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, it's only considered a Christmas song in the USA. It is a love song, and in its country of origin it is considered as such. As an Englishman, I was surprised to find this out whilst playing it on a classical guitar in London. An American girl came up to me and asked why I was playing a "Christmas song" in June! However, true to its origins, the song inspired romance that day :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.183.201 (talk) 00:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the history of "Greensleeves" but it is the standard song that ice cream vans use in england and australia. i'm pretty sure they have been using it since i was a child although im only 28. I think this explains the idea that it is a holiday song since the ice cream truck music is so repeatedly heard during the summer vacation period and ice creams are associated with holidays and are a treasured part of summer, at least for children.

I've never heard it used for ice cream trucks in the US: Turkey in the Straw seems to be standard for that here. That's interesting about Australia, though. CopaceticThought (talk) 10:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

In recent years I've also heard "Chariots of Fire", which is gratifying because when I first heard that theme I thought it sounds like an ice cream truck. —Tamfang (talk) 03:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah i just edited my paragraph to include "England" after i surfed a few discussions about the ice cream truck. There are some interesting choices of songs that ice cream trucks play around the world but so far as ive discovered "Greensleeves" seems to be the norm for England and Australia. I'd love to know how far back that goes.

I grew up in England and I can definitely remember ice cream vans playing it back as far as the mid-1970s. Any advance on that...? Dom Kaos (talk) 22:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

GTA IV

Should it be mentioned that this song is sometimes played by the icecream truck in GTA IV? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.75.114.143 (talk) 23:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Sheet music

In the German Wikipedia there is sheet music ( http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Greensleeves.gif&filetimestamp=20080925054310 ) embedded in the article, wouldn't that make sense for this version, too? 85.22.22.40 (talk) 16:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Another Recording

I suggest adding McCoy Tyner's recording to the list (I would but the article is protected). It was released on his 2008 album Guitars and features Derek Trucks on guitar. JLK27 (talk) 13:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Computer game appearance (Media)

The song is also featured in the German 1998 Computer Game "Anno 1602" (U.S./Canada title "1602 A.D.")

---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_1602

This recording which was made especially for the game is often regarded as an excellent version due to the accurate use of a classic harp.

This version can currently be heard in this youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCP8Yl4VWV8&feature=PlayList&p=835D38693A06EFD0&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

I think it is really worth mentioning as there are no other games mentioned in the article. May this reference be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.189.229.167 (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Sir Thomas Wyatt

I've removed the references to Sir Thomas Wyatt from the section on Henry VIII. As Aliison Weir says the Italian style of composition did not reach England until after his (Henry's) death. As Sir Thomas Wyatt died five years before Henry, he couldn't have introduced it, either.David T Tokyo (talk) 10:22, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Music samples

Do we really need more than a couple of samples in this article? I can believe those to illustrate differences in modes, but once we start adding versions in different genres, we are in danger of breaching WP:INDISCRIMINATE and allowing others in. Furthermore, copyrighted performances (as opposed to the song itself) will need fair-use rationales, and the more we have, the less easy is it to justify their presence. I think we should leave it as just the two. Comments welcome. Rodhullandemu 17:55, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I would say the only versions of the song given should show differences in the melody from dates close to it's appearance, as that is important material. Giving examples of jazz versions, etc., would only be good in a list of alternate versions and not as an example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.193.190 (talk) 16:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

TV series' tune

Greensleevs wasn't in "Dick Turpin" (1979- ) What kids'TV series was it in then?

It wasn't Dick Turpin.. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf7_xBtgd-c

82.168.48.122 (talk) 13:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)dd

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It is a whole-tone interval from the 4th to 5th note

From the 4th to 5th note, it is a rise of a whole-tone interval rather than a semitone interval, as the sheet music--which is correct--indicates, but the first sound file plays the 5th note half-tone lower. It seems now the wrong version is more popular than the correct one which sounds different and better. But still, there are correct versions at Youtube, and the following is an example, even though it is played at a different key. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn4hAdSGYEY --Roland (talk) 04:13, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Obscurity 'R' Us?

The lede to this article is ridiculously complex, to the point of being obfuscatory. This might pass in a musicological text, but hardly in an excyclopedia article for general consumption. I suggest reducing the opening sentence to:

"Greensleeves is a traditional English folk song and tune, probably written sometime in the 16th century."

I would further delete everything in the opening paragraph down to the final sentence:

"The tune is found in several late-16th-century and early-17th-century sources, such as Ballet's MS Lute Book and Het Luitboek van Thysius, as well as various manuscripts preserved in the Seeley Historical Library in the University of Cambridge."

... and move all the business about "romanesca", "passamezzo antico", and "the Andalusian progression" down to a lower section in the article, perhaps entitled Form or History. 67.206.187.92 (talk) 06:06, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion! I've reduced the opening paragraph quite a lot and moved the content into the body of the article, where we can go into more detail. I have still left the ground terms and a clause on the "Greensleeves" name in the lead. — Bilorv (he/him) _(talk) 09:29, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Lyrics

This article and most talk page comments refer to lyrics, perhaps many versions. Not a single version given in the article. It's written like everyone reading the article already knows words to this song. Personally, I didn't when I started reading, and still don't. Good job wikipedia. 2600:8807:5480:713:C018:59E9:EF6E:715E (talk) 18:41, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Edward White's third version, or at least four lines of it, is given in the article. I notice that the reference to the 19th-century Christmas Carol, "What Child Is This?" links to an article on those particular lyrics which does not, however, disclose them. Under "External links" you will find a link to one example, which runs to 19 stanzas. The real problem, it seems to me, is that the melody pre-dates the words of any of the various broadsheet ballads from the late-16th century. As with so many other examples of the genre, there is no reason to choose any one of them as definitive, and even a representative sampling would take up quite a lot of space. Still, it is worth considering including at least a stanza or two from one or another of these, especially since the earlier texts are long out of copyright. Thanks for the suggestion, but can we do without the sarcasm next time?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:17, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

"Greenfleeves" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Greenfleeves. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 14#Greenfleeves until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm (talk) 16:29, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

BBC ban?

Hi, just found this, or the version by The Beverley Sisters, on the list of songs banned by the BBC. Fun, but improbable, if it was for reasons of Tudor morality. Is the reason known? T 84.208.65.62 (talk) 23:51, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Henry VIII (again)

I am moving this paragraph here, so that we can sort this out and be done with it. First of all, I see no reason this needs to be in the lede. It should be rewritten, preferably with a direct quote from Weir's book, which is referenced.

A widely-believed (but unproven) legend is that it was composed by Henry VIII for his lover and future queen consort Anne Boleyn. Anne rejected Henry's attempts to seduce her. This rejection is apparently referred to in the song, when the writer's love "cast me off discourteously." However, it is unlikely that he is the author, as the song is written in a style which was not known in England until after Henry VIII died.

After rewriting, it should be placed somewhere in the main body of the article. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest this.

There is a persistent myth that Greensleeves was composed by Henry VIII for his lover and future queen consort Anne Boleyn. Anne rejected Henry's attempts to seduce her and this rejection is apparently referred to in the song, when the writer's love "cast me off discourteously." However, Henry VIII could not have written Greensleeves as the song is based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after he died.

The actual quote from Alison Weir's book is "Nor did Henry write "Greensleeves," which is probably Elizabethan in origin and is based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after Henry died." David T Tokyo (talk) 18:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest using the direct quote from Weir just to avoid any mistake. Why paraphrase if we do not have to? Again, though, I do not think it belongs in the lede. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 20:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but is there another source besides, Weir, who makes this claim? It is customary for important facts to have two references to stand as fact. I'm not doubting mind you, I just think it needs to be backed up by another source. MagnoliaSouth ^(talk) 21:04, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify something: When Alison Weir says that Greensleeves is "probably Elizabethan" in origin, she is not opening up the possibility that it could have been written in Henry VIII's time. The Romamesca form (on which Greensleeves is based) is a style of music that lasted from 1550-1650. It other words, it's earliest date is 3 years after Henry's death. So although Greensleeves is "probably" Elizabethan, there is an outside chance it could have been written in the reign of Edward VI (1547-1553) or Mary (1553-1558) - but not in Henry's reign.David T Tokyo (talk) 18:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Greg Lindahl, Garik, David T Tokyo, DMacks, Magnoliasouth Since Weir cites Starkey (though the relevant chapter is by Peter Holman) citing Weir doesn't make much sense.

Since Holman says "it is based on an Italian chord progression that became known in England only after his death" whereas the whole p. 154 reference is "But his abilities as a composer have been over-rated: he did not compose ‘Greensleeves’" I've changed the citation so that it's now to p. 104 instead of 154.

There's more detail in the following by Holman: "... ‘Greensleeves’ ( DF, i. 6) is not an original melody but is merely a descant of the Romanesca ground. The original duple-time tune was used for the ballad of ‘Lady Greensleeves’, first published in 1580 (hence the title); the familiar compound-time version seems to have been developed in the middle of the seventeenth century as a country dance tune. Incidentally, the Romanesca did not appear in England until the mid sixteenth century, which makes it unlikely that ‘Greensleeves’ was written by Henry VIII (1491-1547), as is often claimed". Perhaps some of that could be included in the Form section in addition to Origin. Mcljlm (talk) 05:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Henry VIII yet again

SpamFritterBitter and David T Tokyo. There are multiple section above this discussing the Henry VIII authorship claims and they seem to come to the conclusion that sources state Henry VIII didn't write Greensleves. If you read the three sources next to the disputed sentence you can see the following:

...though his achievements in that direction have been exaggerated: he did not write 'Greensleeves', ...

— Music at the Court of Henry VIII

Let’s clear one thing up first of all: Henry VIII did not compose ‘Greensleeves’. Italian in form with an Elizabethan text, this is one piece that must be struck from the list of works by this most musical of monarchs.

— The musical life of King Henry VIII

...nothing to link it to either Henry or Anne, nor to anyone else. Henry VIII died in 1547. Greensleeves first appeared in 1580.

— Greensleeves myth 1: Henry VIII wrote it for Anne Boleyn

It seems clear, based on sources, that he didn't write Greensleeves and the article should say that. In fact the first two of the sources next to the disputed sentence don't confirm that "It is a common romantic legend that Henry wrote the song for his lover and future queen consort Anne Boleyn." CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 10:54, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this. Given your last sentence, maybe the most appropriate line would be "Henry VIII did not write Greensleeves.[4][5] [6] The piece is based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after Henry's death". — Preceding unsigned comment added by David T Tokyo (talk • contribs) 12:39, 2024 July 4 (UTC)

You could, but it's not incorrect to say that it's a common legend (myth or claim might be better as both are in the third source) but I don't see anything indicating it's "romantic" as that's not sourced either. David T Tokyo CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 13:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again. I'll leave this for a few days for SpamFritterBitter to comment and if nothing is forthcoming, I'll change it, incorporating the "common myth" aspect.David T Tokyo (talk) 16:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

No issue with the removal of the "romantic" comment; I retained that from a previous version, but if no one sees any value in it, I don't think it's vital. The issue is the line "Henry VIII did not write Greensleeves". We don't need to make a claim that can never be corroborated. Stating that it's a common myth and is more likely to be Elizabethan in origin covers everything we need. SpamFritterBitter (talk) 09:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the three sources provided? They confirm that he didn't write it. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 14:52, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

They really didn't. SpamFritterBitter (talk) 08:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

How did they not. "he did not write 'Greensleeves" seems quite clear. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 15:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Where's the proof? I could say Henry VIII actually didn't have six wives but was a raging homosexual - it wouldn't make it true. SpamFritterBitter (talk) 09:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The proof, covered by the first two references as the start of this section, is that Greensleeves is based on a style of music that didn't appear until after his death. For that reason alone, it is impossible for him to have written it.David T Tokyo (talk) 10:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

That's because you are not a reliable source. We go with what they say and not what an individual editor thinks. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 18:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Reliability aside, they are still only presenting a theory here. That's all they can do. Is that theory more likely to be correct than one made up by Sid down the pub or Doris from the launderette? Of course. But you must be able to see the fallacy in "A historian said it, therefore it's true". SpamFritterBitter (talk) 07:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The origin and subsequent movement of the Romanesca and Passamezzo Antico is not theoretical. It is there in the copyright records of the time. The fact that you don't believe historians while feeling the need to remind us that nevertheless you rate them above Doris from the launderette (they must be relieved) is completely irrelevant. You are not an informed source - they are.David T Tokyo (talk) 16:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I never claimed I was. I just object to unverifiable blanket statements when there are verifiable statements you could use to make the same point. For example, one of the sources confirms there is no recorded reference to Greensleeves until 1580. SpamFritterBitter (talk) 13:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

What "unverifiable blanket statement"? You've been told - repeatedly - that it is impossible for Henry VIII to have written Greensleeves because that style of music did not exist when we was alive. That's not conjecture, or theory - it's there in the copyright records of the time. So, I ask again what "unverifiable blanket statement". Please come back with something relevant, meaningful and supported by evidence. Your opinion doesn't count. David T Tokyo (talk) 17:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

For Christ's sake, just read what I wrote! SpamFritterBitter (talk) 11:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I did read "For example, one of the sources confirms there is no recorded reference to Greensleeves until 1580." So you concur that Henry VIII could not possibly have written Greensleves. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 18:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't. The lack of recorded reference is a fact. No recorded reference doesn't make it impossible. SpamFritterBitter (talk) 10:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

So no sources saying he could have written it. Just your opinion. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 17:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Show me where I have suggested otherwise. SpamFritterBitter (talk) 10:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

So if it's just your opinion that he could have written then it is acceptable to say he didn't write it based on the available sources. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 20:34, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

We're a week on from the last post - I propose we wrap this up now. I suggest the passage should read "It is a common myth that Greensleeves was written by Henry VIII. However, Henry did not write Greensleeves.[4][5][6] as the piece is based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after his death" David T Tokyo (talk) 13:37, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree. That looks good. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 20:14, 1 August 2024 (UTC)