Talk:Order of the Arrow
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Q1: Are the ceremonies a secret?
A1: No, the Boy Scouts of America now describe their ceremonies as "safeguarded", which they define very differently. In the past, Arrowmen were admonished to keep these details secret, but in the 1980s, the BSA introduced new Youth Protection program policies which include:
The BSA has made clear that any legitimately concerned person may view videos of ceremonies, attend meetings, or read scripts upon request to assure themselves that there is nothing objectionable. Such persons are asked to safeguard the details relating to ceremonies for the sake of the participants.
Much information is now publicly available from the BSA; for example, information on the Ordeal induction is available on the BSA website and in other BSA publications.
Q2: What if I want to add content that is considered to be safeguarded?
A2: Safeguarded material should not be added to the article simply to shock or disrupt. All content must add value to the article regardless of its status as well as meeting the standards of verifiability and notability. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should not focus on whether or not it is safeguarded, but on whether it is appropriate to include in the article. Q3: Are the official publications secret?
A3: No. The BSA will sell The Order of the Arrow Handbook to anyone, although some council Scout Shops may still believe it is a restricted item. Current and old versions of the handbook are readily available elsewhere. When adding content, care must be taken to use the current versions of publications. Q4: Can I publish the passwords to protected content?
A4: No. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act prohibits the act of circumventing any access control. The English Wikipedia operates under the laws of the United States and the state of Florida. It is unlikely that any website we could link to legitimately would protect their content with a password. Q5: Can I link to copyrighted publications posted on a website?
A5: No. We cannot link to illegally published material. Only websites operated by the National Council of the BSA are allowed to publish BSA copyrighted material. Council, district and other sites that are publishing such copyrighted material are in violation of the BSA's copyright policies. External links to content that violates copyrights may be considered contributory infringement. Q6: Are editors who are members of the OA in conflict of interest?
A6: Only when they violate the core of the conflict of interest guideline: Regular editors who are Arrowmen have voluntarily disclosed their association on their userpages and on the talk page of this article. Q7: What about the lyrics to The Order of the Arrow Song?
A7: The song was written by E. Urner Goodman who died in 1980. It has been continuously published in The Order of the Arrow Handbook, a copyrighted publication. The earliest the copyright would expire is 70 years after the death of the author: 2050. How much of the song could or should be included is open to interpretation, especially given the short length. |
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What appears to be an incorrect statement in the article
[edit]The first sentence in the second paragraph of this article states "Influenced by Scout camp customs, the OA uses "safeguarded" (privy only to members) symbols, handshakes, and private rituals to impart a sense of community." While perhaps not entirely incorrect it is definitely not entirely correct either. "Safeguarded" does not mean it is "privy only to members."
Based on the OA web site (https://oa-bsa.org/safeguarded-material) the term Safeguarded refers to:
- "Safeguarded Material
To ensure that Scouts and Scouters who may be going through various Order of the Arrow ceremonies in the future do not have their experience lessened or spoiled, some of the material on this web site is protected.
The Order of the Arrow, recognizing the attractiveness of the unknown, utilizes the form of mystery. This shall not be interpreted, however, as justifying the withholding of any information regarding the Order from any person legitimately interested in investigating its nature, purpose, or method. Nothing in the Order shall be interpreted as interfering with any member's religious obligation.
If you have any questions about this policy, or about the Order of the Arrow, contact your local Boy Scout council or lodge adviser."
As you will note in the above, the information is not privy only to members, but rather it is requested that the information not be shared with candidates for the levels shown to allow for the mystery of the process. Even with this, a Scout can get access to the information.
In addition, the BSA official policy is there are no secret organizations in the BSA. Youth protection guidelines prohibit this. This section needs some rewrite. I would suggest the "(privy only to members)" should either be stricken or rewritten to better describe the actual process. When I read this article, I was given the definite impression this was a "secrete organization" and had things parents or other outsiders could not access. This is a very wrong impression to leave on this great organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Motesewed (talk • contribs) 22:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Motesewed: I see nothing wrong with the language, but if you feel strongly, go edit it yourself. --evrik (talk) 04:00, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
OA Director
[edit]Matt Dukeman is no longer the OA Director. Kilburn.C (talk) 02:41, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Dubious claims re Freemasonry
[edit]The “History” section includes an incredible claim that the OA is uniquely influenced by Freemasonry, viz.:
The traditions and rituals of Freemasonry contributed more to the basic structure of the OA ritual than any other organization. In fact, there appears to be no known fraternal organization more faithful in form to Freemasonry than the OA.
The evidence given is scanty and is equally descriptive of numerous other organizations just within the United States. Considering that “no known fraternal organization” is a global claim, the passage is even more difficult to believe. It also may constitute original research and should be removed on that basis.
I mention this here, rather than just deleting, because someone clearly put thought and effort into this passage and may be invested in keeping it intact. I don’t wish to trigger an edit war so am stating the case here for deletion before deleting. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 18:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with your assessment. I would support this change. Please see my userpage for my noted COIs. Mrwoogi010✉ 21:43, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
That paragraph has been revised and changed to be historically accurate based on AO sources. Freemasonry ties in the History now have solid references with sources that come directly from the Order of the Arrow's own website. The masonic terminology is acknowledged has having been used by the Order of the Arrow prior to the 1930s. As a requirement to the OA becoming officially part of the Boy Scouts of America, this terminology was removed to avoid offending the religious groups at the time per the OA's own official history. If the OA wanted to become part of BSA it had to comply as the religious groups were a powerful partner to BSA with almost half of the chartered organizations being churches at the time. Historical context has been added to explain this and pointing to the BSA History page as both the OA and the BSA's histories are linked starting in the 1930s. This series of event point and the terms such as "Degrees", "Lodges", "rituals", "Pledge" "Fraternity", "altar", "secret" having been purposefully change point to a masonic influence that had become undesirable by the 1930s. However, the fact that the OA says "Patterned similar to the Freemasons, it was decided that each lodge would become a member of the Grand Lodge" on its First Meeting of the Grand Lodge shows that it does not shy away from its influence in the early years.[1] It is important to have a complete history of OA and not ignore the controversies pasts and present. These however have to be documented and represented fairly and accurately here with the proper context for readers unfamiliar with the subject to understand.Blazing Liberty (talk) 14:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
The History has been moved to History of the Order of the Arrow due to the size of the OA article exceeding 13,000 words making it hard to read. A link to the said article has been added.Blazing Liberty (talk) 13:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Dubious claims re "Previously Known As"
[edit]This page needs a reference to where and when that name was changed. That is not an official change that has been communicated to active users. (talk) 16 April 2024 (UTC)