Talk:History of Poznań

Old talk

"Poznan was in years 1815-1919 the capital of the Grand Duchy of Poznan in personal union with the Kingdom of Prussia, but it was not part of Germany. In year 1871 it was unilateraly annexed by the newly created German Empire, despite the protests of the Polish parliamentarians. Poznan was also occupied by the Nazi Germany during World War II (1939-45). "

This is a blatant attempt to minimize and de-germanize history. (1) First you say that it was never part of Germany betweeen 1815 and 1919, then you admit is was after 1871. It couldn't have been part of Germany before 1871, because there was no Germany before then. You attempt to imply that it wasn't part of a German state, by conveniently ignoring the fact that is was an annexed part of the Prussian kingdom from the late 1790s (with the exception of the 8 short Napolean years). Hiding behind the official wording of "personal union" and "autonomous" (which were in name only), doesn't change the fact that the area was in complete Prussian control during that time.

"They were assimilated into the Polish ethnicity, and later resisted Prussian efforts to re-Germanize them. " I believe that you are referring to earlier settlers, what is commonly referred by historians as the "first and second waves". These were pre-"counter-reformation" and they had been assimulated into the Polish population, since they were Polish citizens and Catholics. This whole statement is another POV violation attempt to re-write history.Bwood 18:00, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Now it's POV history. Autonomy of Grand Duchy, at least in first years, was not only "word". Polish was an official language. In 1806 Great Poland was not liberated by Napoleons Army but during Uprising. After battle of Austerlitz Prussian system break down. Napoleon, who want's to conquer Prussia send to Poznań gen. J. H. Dąbrowski to organize uprising on back of Prussian Army. This "Napoleon's conquest" was made by two divisions formed in Great Poland (1st in Poznań, 2nd in Bydgoszcz). Third division (in Warsaw) was formed later. If we want to writ about facts: there were also Polish uprisings in 1793, 1846, 1848 (I didn't mentioned smaller fights). Therefore this period of Great Poland history is called "The longest war of modern Europe". Radomil 04:28, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

First let me assure you that I only wish to strive for 1) accuracy and 2) appropriateness (a readable presentation of what is likely to of interest to most readers). Second, I'm quite willing to be educated. Third, I will not allow one-sided presentations to go unchallenged. I believe that you and I are essentially on the same page, except that you have strong pro-Polish / anti-German bias, which is understandable given the nature of the events of history. (I'm making some assumptions, of course.) Now, let's look at some of the issues:

My biggest ongoing problems with many pro-Polish contributors, is the tendancy to phrase history as if Napolean nor WWI ever happened in respect to the creation of the Duchy or the Republic. The efforts and struggle of Poles against the Prussian and German state should be recognized, but those struggles only succeeded as a result of Napolean's conquest and approval, and the defeat of Germany by outside forces. Those forces and events are primary, Polish resistance fighting/insurgency is secondary. Please find phrasing that reflects that relationship or else you become guilty of re-writing history.

It is important to tie the facts to the applicable world history that the typical reader understands. The connections to the Partitions, Napolean's conquests, the 1848 Revolutions, the unification of Germany, and World War One help the reader place the events in their context.

Thanks for the additional details about the RR etc. For now, I'm going to just touch up the English, and will hold off reverting POV material edits, hoping that I've made a case above, but haven't totally offended you. (It *is* Christmas, after after all :) ) Bwood 20:47, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

After reviewing your recent edits, I find that most of what you've done with the detailed material is line with what I've said. The summary in paragraph 3, however, needs some balancing. Perhaps move the discussions of autonomy down to the detailed section and expand on them with examples, and just have dates and names in the summary? Bwood 21:18, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have some questions about some of the material that you added. Please clarify:

"Gear was located in suburbs Jeżyce because of decision of military administration of Festung Posen." Not sure what you mean by the word "gear", nor the significance of "because of decision of military administration of Festung Posen". Can you please expand on this? Then I can rephrase it in English to capture the correct meanings. I'm guessing that this might mean that the military wanted to have the RR tracks and station positioned conveniently for military use?

"New, large main train station was built on the west side of city in 1879" Did it replace the previous one, or did the old one remain, and if so, how long did it remain, and where was it?

"...the Cybina or Ulga Channel, branch of Warta connects with main stream of river." "Ulga Channel" is another name for the Cybina river? What do "Cybina" and "Ulga" mean (if anything)? Is it used for just the part near the mouth, or for the whole stream? How long is the Cybina?

"Transformation to Festun Posen started in 1828" Transformation from what to what? Does this refer to a move away from the city walls to the citadel? Or to a strenghening of the city walls, and a commitment by Prussia to use Poznan as a military base when it hadn't been such before?

"(for some time it was a political prison)" When?

Finally (I hope), I have tell you that I cannot let you keep your revert, or at least your language about "German inhabitants of the region and city were given an option to stay or leave but most of them left to Germany, and those who stayed made some 10% of the city population". This implies a sanitized condition that didn't exist. Please tell the whole story. Poles weren't the only victims. Bwood 22:33, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for the lengthy discussion, but there is a lot of material (and some "baggage" from other articles). As I wind up today's review and editing of this article, I find that with a few exceptions, the detail is more balanced and accurate than the summary (e.g. the discussion of Soviet dominance in post-war era). I would also like to see more discussion of the missing uprisings, especially the 1848 events, since so much of that occured in the city itself. At least a summary mention, with a link to a future article. Bwood 22:45, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I know that my English is rather rough :)

• Gear - it was mistake, I was thinking about train station. In those times all new buildings in Poznań had to be accepted by military authorities of Festung Posen (for example there was forbiden to build persistance constructions near fortification. See [1] - line of fortification was next to (to the west) Al. Niepodległości. That was a border of city till 1900. Now move map to the west and find Zwierzyniecka street. According to this order train station had to be build in some distance from Poznań. If you see grey plain to the north of Zwierzyniecka - in this area was first station. When in 1846 army decided that the most importent fortificatinons will by those 18 forts (You can also find those forts on this map - [2] - here is Fort VII) Station was moved to todays place ([3] - Poznań Główny).

Now I would remove this phrase: The eastern branch had another station and a spur that serviced the slaughterhouse district (Jewish quarter). Look at this:[4] - railway is in this same place as in those times (today station is named "Poznań Garbary" . And "Jewish quater" is here [5] - this small area between: Żydowska, Szewska, Małe Garbary and Dominikańska.

• Now "Cybina". In XIX century Warta flows through Poznańa little bit diffrent way. Main streem was in this same place were is today, ([6]) but if you look on this map - naxt branch was were today are: Harbour (this bay in NE corner of map) and Mostowa Str. Now look here [7] If you find Cybina You should know that south end of this branch was "dead end". Now here is clue to mystery [8] There's again a branch o Warta named Cybina, and a small river linking this branch with Jezioro Maltańskie ("Maltan Lake"). This small river is also called Cybina and it is 43 km long. So this dead ended branch was called after this river (or rather big creek). In 1960' rotue of Warta in Poznań was Changed. One branch was liquidated, and Cybina branch was reopened and renamed to Kanał Ulgi ("Channel of Relief"), but in fact both names are used. So "Cybina" is a name of river, and also branch (in those times long bay) of Warta.

• Transformation from City of Poznan to Festung Posen in which more important were orders of garrison commander than town concuil

• 1846 - 1849 - Polish fighters in uprisings of 1846 and 1848

• The phrase: German residents who had not fled and who had survived the pillage and reprisals during the defeat was wery POV because: In whole paragraph there is no mention about large number of Polish civil victims caused mainly not by regular German army but by Grenzschutz-Ost. In this case mentioning about German victimes was rather German POV.

• Later I will try to writ something about those Uprisings, I'm also writing Polish language article (or rather series of articles) about history of Poznań. If You know Polish look there, maby You will find something that will interest You (for now "I've stuck" in XVI century).

Also Merry Christmas to You Radomil 01:10, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I wish that I did read Polish, it would be of tremendous use. I'm still trying to improve my German, but if I live long enough, Polish is next. I'm sure we can come to mutual compromises on the contentious issues, and am glad that you make the effort on these English pages. Where have you received your knowledge of the details of the history of Poznan? I have so many questions from studying old maps, postcard photos... Bwood 02:23, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I know that there is a second station near the main station, possibly with an underground passageway linking the two. That second station isn't the same as the first station in Jeżyce, is it? I would think that it was too far away to be the same. Bwood 04:12, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm just living in Poznań. My familly, Poles and Germans, lives here (this mean in city and Great Poland for... well at least for last 200 years :) This history is my history.

This old station on Jeżyce doesn't exist (today in this place is old tram depot - pl:Zajezdnia tramwajowa przy ul. Gajowej w Poznaniu) last building of station was pull down in late 1960's.
You are talking about Dworzec Zachodni ("Western Station") - in fact this is part of "Poznań Główny" (Poznań Main Station). Main entrence to station is from Dworcowa Str., but second one [9] is from Głogowska Str. This building on photo, and platforms No. 7 and 8 are called "Dworzec Zachodni", and as a part of Poznań Główny it is connected with main building on Dworcowa Str. by underground passage. Radomil 10:38, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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repetition

The first part of this article is essentially the same thing as the page that linked me to here. It is pretty much word for word, and I spent a good hour or two cleaning up the section that took me here (just the "History" section of the Poznań page. It was written with a little bit of POV, but more importantly, not quite up to a collegiate level or standard. Should I just add that part to the top, as it is exactly the same?

which cultures?

Before Polans have arrived (that the moved to there is missing too), there settled germanic tribes at specially Burgundians - and may be, there moved most of them abroad, not all. Totally missing here,2A02:8109:8CC0:6480:95D0:54E3:E23B:732F (talk) 23:38, 24 May 2021 (UTC)