Talk:Murray River

PS Etona was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 1 September 2022 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Murray River. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Australia: New South Wales / South Australia / Victoria / Riverina High‑importance

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Archive 1

Indigenous names

I would propose using five different indigenous names for the Murray.

(Ngarrindjeri: Murrundi, Barapa Bapara: Mile or Mirri, Yorta Yorta: Dhungala, Wiradjuri: Milawa, Ngarigu: Indi)

The entry for Ngarrindjeri is currently wrong. This should be Murrundi.

Reference: https://nativetitle.org.au/publications/ngarrindjeri-nation-yaruwar-ruwe-plan

The majority of the tribes appear to use a variation on Mile or Milloo (i.e. Barapa Bapara: Mile or Mirri; Wemba Wemba: Mile; Wadi Wadi: Miilu, Milu, Milloo, Millooie; Latje Latje: MiUoo, Millieu; etc). The following is a reference for the Barapa Bapara usage of the names.

Reference: http://doi.org/10.1080/17445647.2019.1701574

The Yorta Yorta word Dhungala to remain unchanged but remove Tongala. There are simply too many variations to list these per language group (i.e. just for Yorta Yorta you have Dhungala, Dunghala, Tongala, Dungala, Dunggula, Dhungulla, Fingola)

The word Millewa seems to be the generic word used as an aboriginal name for the Murray, but I haven't managed to locate a reference to any particular tribe. I'm speculating that this word was taken was from the Wiradjuri people at Albury. They currently use Milawa.

Reference: https://wiradjuri.wcclp.com.au/letters/m/words/89839

Indi for the upper Murray above Bringenbrong. It is likely a Ngarigu word from either the Ngarigo or Yaitmathang tribes that historically lived in the upper Murray, taken from a word that means "water plant" (indi or ingi). The Wiradjuri use the word Yindi for this section.

Reference: https://www.aec.gov.au/profiles/vic/indi.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by ETA Unknown (talk • contribs) 06:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

25,000 years BP

In the Cadell Fault section BP is used. What does that signify? Thanks.Kyle Andrew Brown (talk) 16:58, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Before Present. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The real length?

The article states the Murray is 3,750km in length, which would appear to make it the longest flowing river in Australia. However, the infobox states that it is 2,575km in length. Which is correct? There should be no ambiguity here due to the fact that the Murray-Darling is sometimes considered a single river including only the lower part of the Murray and the Darling river, as this article surely deals with the entire river that goes by the name of the Murray. Danielfranklin78 (talk) 14:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Brooks1970 (talk) 11:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)== Murray River the longest river in australia! ==[reply]

In this article it states that the Murray river is the second largest river in australia at 3750 Km (approximately). The article states that the Darling river and it tributories is longer. I looked up the Darling River, where it states it is the longest river in Australia, but the figure given is only 2739 Km. I think both articles stating that the Darling river is Australia's longest river is wrong. The Murray river is Australia's longest river even the figures in these two articles conclude this. Another problem with this article is that it states that the Darling river including it tributories are longer than the Murray river. If you are to include the Darling river tributories, why not include the Murray river tributories the Murrumbigee river to name just one? --Brooks1970 (talk) 11:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The lenght of the South Australian/ Victorian border is state as 3.6 km- the river distance is actually 10.7km - the 3.6 is the distance between the two lines of longitute that the border meets the river. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roo1000 (talk • contribs) 06:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the Lower Lakes?

News articles often talk about the imminent death of the "Lower Lakes" of the River Murray, so I came here hoping to find a geographical definition of the "Lower Lakes". A few mentions of one Lake or another, but no explanation of the "Lower Lakes" - can anyone help? 150.101.78.49 (talk) 07:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lower lakes are Lake Albert and Lake Alexandrina in South Australia. Bidgee (talk) 07:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Border between NSW and Victoria

Everyone knows this, but maybe it needs a little tightening up. There was a case some years ago where a guy lived on an island in the middle of the river, and claimed he wasn't liable for state taxes from either state. I believe the High Court saw some merit in his logic, and later the border was officially moved to the southern bank of the river, so that the water is all now officially within NSW (or maybe the other way around). Anyone have any info on this?

I've heard of the court case with the taxes which but I'm unsure if it's true since there is many myths. Some information I've heard is that half of the river is in NSW and VIC, Sections of the river are in NSW or VIC states ect but this issue is I've never found any sources to see what is fact. Bidgee (talk) 02:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here in Mildura (and I assume everywhere else within Victoria along the Murray), the river belongs to NSW. To give one example, should one choose to catch fish using a line from the Victorian bank, a NSW fishing licence is required as your line is effectively entering NSW property. More info here. -- Longhair\^talk 02:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That makes some sense. At one time, the entire river was the border, but in the relatively recent past this was changed to a line running along the southern edge. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty sure the border was always the mean high-water mark on the left bank (looking downstream). NSW was reluctant to have a large and (becoming) prosperous section of its territory removed and fought hard to minimise the area involved. Despite the southern Riverina naturally gravitating to southern ports, such as Melbourne, and even more so, lower Murray ports such as Goolwa, NSW wanted to retain control of navigation on the major river in its territory. Waterway navigation was very very important before the roll-out of railroads. As part of the compromises developed to seal to the deal on the separation, the Port Phillip side were forced to concede the entire Murray. At least that's the story I remember reading. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 03:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The transcript here seems to support the idea the border was set at the southern bank back in 1851. "The story really begins in 1851 when a border was drawn between the new colony of Victoria and New South Wales. The leaders of New South Wales placed that border on the southern bank of the Murray River, and as Environmental Historian, Daniel Connell argues, they did so for a reason." -- Longhair\^talk 03:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Murrumbidgee

Also, I read somewhere that the border was originally going to be the Murrumbidgee, but they changed their mind and made it the Murray. Any details available on this? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've also have heard of the Murrumbidgee story as well. Must like the Murray there is many versions. One is that they drew the border on the wrong river (IE: Murray), Second is that NSW didn't want to give up the land south of the Murrumbidgee but compromised on the Murray and the third is that the border if they used the Murrumbidgee that they would have to use to the a small section of the last half of Murray since the Murrumbidgee is a tributary so they used the most of the Murray to form the border. Again I've not found any sources for the facts that the Murrumbidgee was to be the border. Bidgee (talk) 02:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've tracked down where I read this. It was an article by Seamus Bradley in The Age on 24 November 2004 ("After 153 years, time to proclaim Victoria's final frontier", p. 3), about the restoration of the cairn marking the official start of the river at Forest Hill, neat Mt Kozzy. The cairn also marks the start of the straight part of the border, which is apparently called the Black-Allan Line, in honour of the original surveyors, Alexander Black and Alexander Allan (1872). I never knew that. The Black-Allan line was supposed to have been formally proclaimed as part of the border in 1874, and a draft proclamation was prepared, but for some reason it was never invoked. The restoration of the cairn in 2004 was apparently meant to precede the proclamation finally happening in 2005, but I have no info on exactly when, or even if, that happened. Anyway, as part of the article it was mentioned that the border was originally planned for the Murrumbidgee. But "the discovery of gold at Delegate, and the question of which colony it lay in, prompted the first survey of the line from the Murray to Cape Howe nearly 20 years after the colonies had split". That's all it says about the Murrumbidgee. My reading of that is that, by the time this survey happened (1872), the question of whether the Murray or the Murrumbidgee was the border had long been settled (the colonies split in 1851), and the only remaining issue was exactly where the straight-edge part of the border lay. But allegedly, prior to the 1851 split, it was an open question about which river was to be the border. If we can find some info about exactly who made the final decision, and when, that would be good. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

River diversion

Perhaps a small section can describe the plan to divert the murray river inland and break the connection with the sea. This could halt the salination which is now on the rise and increases water availability for adelaide. See http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/04/murray-darling/draper-text/9 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.172.175 (talk) 17:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Different lengths

List_of_rivers_of_Australia#Longest_rivers, and Murray River articles state different lengths for the river? Carlwev (talk) 11:23, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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PS Etona

A Google search shows that this 124-year-old vessel still exists, and has been fully restored. IMHO this article is definitely a keep, and should have been marked as a stub instead of being nominated for merging into the Murray River article. Bahudhara (talk) 01:37, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are two Etonas listed at List of Murray–Darling steamboats. Was there also a separate article? Doug butler (talk) 07:24, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, but the earlier vessel is now briefly mentioned in the stub article. In the List of Murray–Darling steamboats, the first vessel is mentioned twice, as Etona (1), and as Alma. Bahudhara (talk) 08:39, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First crossing?

The article currently has River crossings Main article: List of crossings of the Murray River The Murray River has been a significant barrier to land-based travel and trade. Many of the ports for transport of goods along the Murray have also developed as places to cross the river, either by bridge or ferry. The first bridge to cross the Murray, which was built in 1869, is in the town of Murray Bridge, formerly called Edwards Crossing. To distinguish this bridge from the many others that span the Murray River, this bridge is known as Murray River road bridge, Murray Bridge Tolls applied on South Australian ferries until abolished in November 1961.

But the Union Bridge at Albury-Wodonga opened in 1861??? See OPENING OF THE UNION BRIDGE, ALBURY. (1861, September 4). The Albury Banner and Wodonga Express (NSW : 1860 - 1938), p. 3. Retrieved June 5, 2023, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article264149304

and there are other articles

The main article does not list earlier iterations of the Union Bridge.

Matilda ^talk 06:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Drying up

"It has dried up completely during extreme droughts on three occasions since official record-keeping began." More info would be great! When did this happen? What is the source for this statement? yoyo (talk) 12:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That statement is quite probably true, but to remain in the article, it really should be sourced. I just did a quick search. There's a quite a lot of articles out there that talk about droughts and their effects on the Murray-Darling river system. This one mentions several times when the Darling ceased to flow, but is a bit thin on such details for the Murray itself. There probably are sources, but someone with more time than I have right now needs to hunt them down. HiLo48 (talk) 23:48, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]