Talk:Acupuncture

Pseudoscience?

Hi, I personally don't know much about this topic, but I recently read an article by the NIH (https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know#:~:text=Acupuncture%20is%20a%20technique%20in,for%20at%20least%202%2C500%20years.) which states that acupuncture is to some degree supported by scientific research, so it surprises me that this Wikipedia article starts off saying that "acupuncture is a pseudoscience" when (apparently) it does have some support from a reputable health agency. Shaked13 (talk) 16:22, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The article describes it as pseudoscience because appropriate reliable sources describe it as pseudoscience. And that's by the NCCIH, by the way, which is not quite the same as the NIH. Brunton (talk) 16:40, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The NCCIH is part of the NIH.

I don't doubt that appropriate reliable sources describe it as a pseudoscience, it just seems that (at least one) (seemingly) appropriate reliable source describes it as not a pseudoscience.

Now I see that you and a few other editors seem to think that this is not a reliable source. What is the basis for that. I understand that being a government agency doesn't automatically make a source reliable but I was under the impression that the NIH is considered to be a reliable source. Shaked13 (talk) 17:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Nope, NCCIH is a pro-quackery wing of the US government, and it is technically independent from being controlled by NIH. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

DEscribing the NCCIH as a reputable health agency is something of a stretch. I mean, it has a reputation, but it isn't a good one... Girth Summit _(blether) 17:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

It's from NCCIH, so no fuzz about it, sole mumbo jumbo. --Julius Senegal (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The categorization of acupuncture as pseudoscience and the fact that it has been studied scientifically can both be true. The ancient theory of why acupuncture works is certainly pseudoscience; there is plenty of evidence that there is no qi flowing through the human body, and that it is not necessary to poke needles into specific body points to access qi. The fact that acupuncture does reduce pain perception for some people has been shown scientifically, and as the NCCIH and Wikipedia articles explain, that's a placebo effect. Especially for people with incurable chronic pain, understanding placebo effects can help design useful placebo-based treatments. (NCCIH also mentions there "may" be direct effects on connective tissue; I'm not familiar with the evidence for or against that, but it's physically plausible that disturbing tissue stimulates it in some way, and unrelated to the qi theory.) -- Beland (talk) 17:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I think a fair statement would be: Traditional acupuncture theories are prescienctific [ref] pseudoscience. The theories and practices of TCM are based on naturalist theories [ref] rather than on scientific knowledge.

[ref] = Kaptchuk, T. J. (2002). Acupuncture: theory, efficacy, and practice. Annals of internal medicine, 136(5), 374-383 Youhanna1111 (talk) 22:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Correctly said, "Traditional acupuncture theories were prescientific until roughly 100 years ago. Now they are pseudoscience. The theories and practices of TCM are based on ideas which pass nowadays for Ancient superstitions. TCM is a hoax produced by Chairman Mao so that he didn't have to buy expensive medicines from foreign countries, and trick his totalitarian subjects into a false sense of getting medically treated. And he sent to the labor camp anyone who declared that anesthesia by acupuncture does not work." tgeorgescu (talk) 03:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The article currently says Mao claimed the practice was based on scientific principles. It does not mention anything about motivation or labor camps. Can you point us to reliable sources that support those claims? I'm not sure acupuncture meets the definition given in superstition, and that term sounds pejorative. -- Beland (talk) 18:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Beland: See e.g. Unschuld, Paul U. (2010). Medicine in China: A History of Ideas. Comparative Studies of Health Systems and Medical Care. University of California Press. p. 364. ISBN 978-0-520-26613-1. Retrieved 8 July 2024. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah, great. I'm afraid I'm not getting access to page 364; could you give a quote that supports the above claims? -- Beland (talk) 20:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay: an eye surgeon was so foolish as to report to his superiors that anesthesia through acupuncture does not work; his report got labeled with "three hats" and he was subjected to "criticism of the masses". People, due to pain, were shouting political slogans during surgery. Because they were not allowed to say they feel pain.

And it is largely copy/pasted here. It says if one did not accept that anesthesia through acupuncture works, they were deemed counterrevolutionaries.

So, the Chinese medical consensus wasn't based upon empirical evidence, but upon argumentum ad baculum. CCP ideologues decided how the scientific consensus should be, real scientists had no say in this matter. Empirically investigating the effectiveness of acupuncture was a crime against the state (if the scientists dared to express politically taboo conclusions).

So, yes, "acupuncture does not work" was a taboo enforced through political policing and reeducation camp sentences. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Mind you that Mao died half a century ago. 202.40.137.128 (talk) 10:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

That wasn't a direct quote, but I managed to get a copy of the page upon reloading. It doesn't say anything about Mao himself or labor camps or a law making empirical investigation a crime, but what it does say is interesting enough to add to the article. Any idea what "criticism of the masses" is supposed to mean? -- Beland (talk) 22:01, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

At the second RS mentioned by me: acceptance of anesthesia through acupuncture was one of the standards used to judge if someone was for Mao's revolution or against it. Of course, it does not say they were sentenced to labor camps, but you just have to know what happened to people deemed to be against Mao's revolution.

"Criticism of the masses" meant public humiliation (show trial), possibly accompanied by some torture, and losing one's job. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

If you want to mention labor camps in the article, then we need a reliable source that makes that connection with acupuncture specifically, to avoid original synthesis. Is there a realiable source which defines "criticism of the masses"? Presumably there is an underlying Chinese phrase which is being translated. -- Beland (talk) 00:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

We'll just say they were labeled counterrevolutionaries, which is WP:V, and people will have to look up for themselves what that entailed.

This source describes that "criticism by the masses" entailed violence, sometimes lethal: Paquet, Philippe; Rose, Julie; Barnes, Julian (2017). Simon Leys: Navigator between Worlds. Schwartz Books Pty. Limited. p. fn. 51. ISBN 978-1-925435-56-6. Retrieved 9 July 2024. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the word "counterrevolutionary" in Unschuld. -- Beland (talk) 00:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Prioreschi, Plinio (1996). A History of Medicine: Primitive and ancient medicine. A History of Medicine. Horatius Press. p. 178. ISBN 978-1-888456-01-1. Retrieved 9 July 2024. During the period of "Cultural Revolution," acupuncture anesthesia served politically as a standard to judge progress or backwardness, revolution or non-revolution. Physicians and patients were under the pressure of the political requirements of that time. They had no choice but to have exceptional courage in order to carry out or undergo surgery, especially as the patients who felt pain could not cry out. Also in Unschuld 2010, p. 364

Morals: acupuncture anesthesia simply means that Mao was a sadistic tyrant. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you interpreting reference to "non-revolution" to imply the labelling of people as "counter-revolutionary"? -- Beland (talk) 01:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

From the context is quite clear that any dissent from acupuncture anesthesia was politically repressed.

To put it otherwise, backwardness and non-revolution were grave political felonies. They didn't think that backwardness means being a bit dumb, so one needs more help from functionaries. It was a brutal police state, and acupuncture anesthesia was its sacrosanct dogma. Compulsory state ideology led to mass madness, especially in the hands of such a tyrant. It was like the Inquisition, with Maoism instead of Christianity.

The Chinese consensus about acupuncture anesthesia was championed by yesmen and sycophants. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, but the question is not how you or I would describe the situation, but precisely how it should be described in a neutral article based on reliable sources. You keep introducing new words into the conversation which are great for expressing an opinion in a colorful way, but don't follow the identified sources, and can't be used in the article. -- Beland (talk) 06:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Political repression of disbelievers in acupuncture anesthesia is clearly WP:V in the WP:RS mentioned above. Who was targeted by it? Scientists, MDs, and even patients. Practically anyone who disbelieved it was a target for being repressed. Mao was in some respects outstandingly stupid, sadistic, or delusional. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• To bring this back on point, the premise of the question (that if something is subject to the scientific method, it is not pseudoscience) is fallacious. Many/most pseudosciences are subject to scientific research - there has been an an entire journal dedicated to homeopathy for example. More simply, for Wikipedia, it's required to follow the sources which consider the question of whether acupuncture is a pseudoscience or not. By them, it is; and we are required by policy to reflect that. Bon courage (talk) 07:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Not a pseudoscience

As acupuncture was developed 3000 years ago, it is pre-scientific, not pseudoscientific. In the past 20+ years, the amount of acupuncture research has outpaced biomedical research. As this body of scientific knowledge grows, we are beginning to translate a traditional medicine into modern biomedical scientific language a piece at a time. https://www.evidencebasedacupuncture.org/acupuncture-scientific-evidence/

But we must be careful not assume a partial scientific exploration of a full system of medicine is complete - this an ongoing and developing project on a global scale. Acupuncture is the most widely practice traditional medicine in the world and is incorporated into the new ICD11 codes put out the World Health Organization (WHO).

The WHO and the NIH in the United States support the use of acupuncture and it is covered by insurance in all 50 states.

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know

[1]https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/978-92-4-001688-0 https://holistic-health.org.uk/world-health-organisation-recommends-acupuncture-100-conditions/

Medicare covers acupuncture for low back pain due to the strong scientific evidence of efficacy: https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/view/ncacal-decision-memo.aspx?proposed=N&NCAId=295 https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2021.730322/full https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1136/acupmed-2017-011445 https://www.kpwashingtonresearch.org/live-healthy/all-articles/live-healthy-2014/how-effective-acupuncture-chronic-back-pain

Acupuncturists are also a valid profession as defined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291291.htm 66.235.16.199 (talk) 22:33, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds just like Mao Zedong Moxy🍁 22:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd expect a valid argument. 31.205.18.117 (talk) 23:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Acupuncture got banned in China as quackery, but then Mao revived it because he lacked money for real anesthetics. It is basically a hoax perpetrated for political reasons. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:25, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2024

Acupuncture According to the History of Medicine and the Huang Di Nei Jing, Shang Han Lun, Wen Bing was only practiced on the Royals and Emporers. The Name of the first text book is the Yellow Emporer's Internal Cannon. It was never for "Lower-Class." It is modernly labeled as 'Traditional' and sits next to 'Folk' Remedies as it shares Identical Single herb prescriptions with Many other Nationalities such as Many Native American tribal medicine maker. It Differs from Witch Doctor in that it is Closer to the History of Veterinary Medicine as it uses Snake anti-venums for problems with livestock being bitten. The concept of Low-Class cannot be confused with Folk or Traditional as it lends 'Poverty' the word to 'Nativity' the way of life. Because Emporer and Royal medicine also shares Identicality with Royal British Culinary arts. It also can Never be removed from Western civilization as High societied History of Tea. Provider Modernly make tea pills. The History of Medicine and Natural healing amongst Nations has sometimes nothing to do with class, even more interesting is the Shells themselves were once used in Africa As the Coin of choice, currancy. It was also golden medicine, golden shells. These are still Modernly Integrated. Golden Cabinet is the name of a text book.

It is Never Lower-Class. 50.125.109.26 (talk) 19:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 05:52, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

And to answer the objection: we don't judge it differently based upon whether it was meant for the lower class or for the very wealthy. That does not have the slightest bearing upon whether it is objectively effective. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2024

I would like to make some suggestions to the acupuncture page. I do understand it is a contentious topic but believe some added edits and updated references would add better context as the WHO among others is expanding the use of traditonal medicine practices and has added a specific chapter in ICD11 for Traditional Medicine Acupuncture titled TM1

collapse WP:MWOT.

Change X - [Acupuncture is a pseudoscience;[4][5] the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge,[6] and it has been characterized as quackery.[7][8][9][10][11]] to Y – [Acupuncture is one of the treatment modalities used in Traditional Medicine and is used to manage various signs, symptoms, and conditions in the body. Acupuncture is defined as the evaluation or treatment that is effected by stimulating certain body points by the insertion of pre-sterilized, single-use, disposable needles, unless medically contraindicated. "Acupuncture" includes, but is not limited to, stimulation that may be effected by the application of heat, including far infrared, or cold, electricity, electro or magnetic stimulation, cold laser, vibration, cupping, gua sha, manual pressure, or other methods, with or without the concurrent use of needles, to prevent or modify the perception of pain, to normalize physiological functions, or for the treatment of diseases or dysfunctions of the body and includes the determination of a care regimen or treatment protocol according to traditional East Asian principles. [Citation: Acupuncture Practice Act. Illinois General Assembly. http://ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1290&ChapAct=225%20ILCS%202/&ChapterID]. There is a range of acupuncture technological variants that originated in different philosophies,[12] and techniques vary depending on the country in which it is performed. However, it can be divided into two main foundational philosophical applications and approaches; the first being the modern standardized form called eight principles TCM and the second being an older system that is based on the ancient Daoist wuxing, better known as the five elements or phases in the West.[13][14][15] Acupuncture is most often used to attempt pain relief,[16][17] though acupuncturists say that it can also be used for a wide range of other conditions. Acupuncture is generally used only in combination with other forms of treatment.[18] The global acupuncture market was worth US$24.55 billion in 2017. The market was led by Europe with a 32.7% share, followed by Asia-Pacific with a 29.4% share and the Americas with a 25.3% share. It was estimated in 2021 that the industry would reach a market size of US$55 billion by 2023.[19] Change X – [The conclusions of trials and systematic reviews of acupuncture generally provide no good evidence of benefit, which suggests that it is not an effective method of healthcare.[20][21]] to Y – [Historical records as old as 3,500 years demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture in relieving physical ailments, supporting disease prevention, and promoting health and wellness. [Citation: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/wellness/integrative/treatments-services/acupuncture]. Acupuncture is generally safe when done by appropriately trained practitioners using clean needle technique and single-use needles.[22][23] When properly delivered, it has a low rate of mostly minor adverse effects.[3][22] When accidents and infections do occur, they are associated with neglect on the part of the practitioner, particularly in the application of sterile techniques.[16][23] A review conducted in 2013 stated that reports of infection transmission increased significantly in the preceding decade.[24] The most frequently reported adverse events were pneumothorax and infections.[16] Since serious adverse events continue to be reported, it is recommended that acupuncturists be trained sufficiently to reduce the risk.[16] Change X – [Scientific investigation has not found any histological or physiological evidence for traditional Chinese concepts such as qi, meridians, and acupuncture points,[c][28] and many modern practitioners no longer support the existence of life force energy (qi) or meridians, which was a major part of early belief systems.[12][29][30]] to Y - However, modern research substantiates the effectiveness of Acupuncture. Studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) have shown that acupuncture elicits changes in the brain that correlate with neurological effects. [Citation: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/wellness/integrative/treatments-services/acupuncture] As confirmed by the world-renowned Cleveland Clinic, “Acupuncture affects the limbic and para-limbic networks in the brain and has a deep hemodynamic response, which is influenced by the psychophysical response. Acupuncture also stimulates the nervous system and improves conduction and communication between nerves. This improved functioning of the nervous system stimulates neurotransmitter actions and the release of the body’s natural endorphins and other opioids. For example, serotonin may be released following acupuncture, therefore helping patients feel more relaxed and sustain a sense of well-being that lasts for hours thereafter, if not longer. Research has also shown acupuncture’s ability in relieving myofascial pain by releasing muscular trigger points with ensuing concomitant anti-inflammatory effects.” [Citation: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/wellness/integrative/treatments-services/acupuncture] Acupuncture is believed to have originated around 100 BC in China, around the time The Inner Classic of Huang Di (Huangdi Neijing) was published,[31] though some experts suggest it could have been practiced earlier.[13] Over time, conflicting claims and belief systems emerged about the effect of lunar, celestial and earthly cycles, yin and yang energies, and a body's "rhythm" on the effectiveness of treatment.[32] Acupuncture fluctuated in popularity in China due to changes in the country's political leadership and the preferential use of rationalism or scientific medicine.[31] Acupuncture spread first to Korea in the 6th century AD, then to Japan through medical missionaries,[33] and then to Europe, beginning with France.[31] In the 20th century, as it spread to the United States and Western countries, spiritual elements of acupuncture that conflicted with scientific knowledge were sometimes abandoned in favor of simply tapping needles into acupuncture points.[31][34][35] Add Y – [Traditional Chinese medicine practitioners believe the human body has more than 2,000 acupuncture points connected by pathways or meridians. These pathways create an energy flow (Qi, pronounced "chee") through the body that is responsible for overall health. Disruption of the energy flow can cause disease. By applying acupuncture to certain points, it is thought to improve the flow of Qi, thereby improving health. Studies have shown that acupuncture is effective for a variety of conditions. [Citation: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture]. Add Y – [The precision of Acupuncture principles lie in the perception of disharmony, in its ability to recognize signs and symptoms, a pattern that becomes the basis for treatments. In the initial step of diagnosis, a disease has been identified in the Western Biomedical approach, then Acupuncturists are required to enter the second step of diagnosis to understand the relationship of the disease and the body. This in known as 'pattern of disharmony.' For example, Acupuncture and other Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) treatments are dependent on restoration of balance. The Nei Jing asserts that the nature of any entity, living or not, is determined by the intrinsic balance between opposing states, Yin and Yang. Disturbances in balance result in changes in nature, often expressed in living systems in the form of symptoms or signs of disease. Acupuncture treatments are intended to restore balance. Balance is accomplished by influencing the vital energy, the Qi. In the TCM paradigm, Qi flows through channels in the body and in the spaces between muscles and the skin. Qi has many functions including warming, moistening, and nourishing; promoting normal function of the organs; providing energy for different processes; regulating the body; protecting the body; and ensuring that organs remain in their proper positions. A very important role of Qi is in maintaining balance. In this sense, it is a homeostatic mechanism by which the body can heal itself and establish a state of wellness. If Qi encounters a Yin–Yang imbalance, Qi corrects the situation by transforming one to the other, thus restoring balance and harmony. If, however, a blockage exists that impedes the flow of Qi, a factor is present that is interfering with the Qi, or if there is a Deficiency of Qi, this healing transformation does not take place. There are TCM techniques for opening blocked channels; for expelling pathogenic factors that are interfering with normal processes; and for boosting Qi in cases of Deficiency. [Citation: Aung SK, Fay H, Hobbs RF 3rd. Traditional Chinese Medicine as a Basis for Treating Psychiatric Disorders: A Review of Theory with Illustrative Cases. Med Acupunct. 2013 Dec 1;25(6):398-406. doi: 10.1089/acu.2013.1007. PMID: 24761185; PMCID: PMC3870484. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3870484/] Change X: [Clinical practice Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine.[2] It is used most commonly for pain relief,[16][17] though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment.[18] For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy.[36] ] to to Y: Clinical Practice Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine.[2] It is used most commonly for pain relief,[16][17] though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment.[18] For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy.[36] Practitioners who practice Acupuncture are trained and take didactical coursework and clinical practice in their education; and, pass the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) board exams, or a state-specific licensing exam in California. [Citation: https://www.nccaom.org/] The Acupuncture training program includes techniques such as cupping, gua sha tui na, moxibustion, herbal medicine, lifestyle and nutrition based on Traditional Medicine principles. [Citation: https://www.nccaom.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/NCCAOM-Acupuncture-Certification-Fact-Sheet-New-Branding.pdf] There is current research supporting that acupuncture has efficacy with pain management being the most well-known application. [Citation: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/about/pac-20392763] Conceptually, it is believed to stimulate the body's meridians, or energy-carrying channels, in an attempt to correct imbalances and to restore health. These benefits are thought to be derived from the proximity of acupoints with nerves through intracellular calcium ions. This lesson outlines a brief history of acupuncture and how it may be used to treat various types of physical and emotional pain and specific conditions, including overactive bladder and psoriasis. Acupuncture has been demonstrated to enhance endogenous opiates, such as dynorphin, endorphin, encephalin, and release corticosteroids, relieving pain and enhancing the healing process. [Citation: Patil S, Sen S, Bral M, Reddy S, Bradley KK, Cornett EM, Fox CJ, Kaye AD. The Role of Acupuncture in Pain Management. Curr Pain Headache Rep. 2016 Apr;20(4):22. doi: 10.1007/s11916-016-0552-1. PMID: 26896946. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26896946/] Of particular note is that Acupuncture is now incorporated by highly-acclaimed Western Medicine providers as part of a treatment plan for numerous conditions. The world-renowned Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center endorses the newly updated Society of Integrative Oncology’s recommendations for acupuncture for breast cancer patients with joint pain. [citation: https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/therapies/acupuncture; https://old-prod.asco.org/sites/new-www.asco.org/files/content-files/practice-patients/documents/2022-Integrative-Pain-Management-Slides.pdf]. Medical institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, National Cancer Institute, City of Hope, and Cleveland Clinic also integrate Acupuncture into their patients care programs. [Citations: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/wellness/integrative/treatments-services/acupuncture; https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/about/pac-20392763; https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/acupuncture-pdq; https://www.cityofhope.org/patients/living-with-cancer/wellness-during-and-after-cancer-treatment/integrative-therapies] Sam Collins 33 (talk) 19:39, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

This is a hodgepodge of content copied verbatim from copyrighted sources. It can't be used. ScienceFlyer (talk) 20:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, Historical records as old as 3,500 years demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture is invalid reasoning - argumentum ad antiquitatem - not consistent with WP:MEDRS, to give just one example. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)