Talk:Major and minor

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On 29 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Major and minor (music). The result of the discussion was not moved.

2nd paragraph

The second paragraph reads: The minor scale may be considered as the sixth mode of a major scale, or otherwise a variation, such as a major scale with a lowered third, sixth, and seventh. The minor scale may be considered as a variation of the major scale. For instance, the conception of the minor scale being simply a major scale with lowered or altered third, sixth, and seventh scale degrees. The same thing is said twice. zaius 15:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Final paragraph - sadder

Any comments on the mystery of minor key music tapping into sadness, grief, bitterness? Is it so, and why so? I'm not looking for a Sunday supplement "brain doctor" explanation.--shtove 00:09, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There's definitely no scientific basis for it; it's all culturally conditioned -- in former eras the modes were given different interpretations. It can be fun to read ancient Greeks' analyses of why certain modes were happy, sad, or caused youth to misbehave (I seem to remember the Lydian mode was particularly wicked in this regard). Anyway, it's just because composers have been using minor mode for sad songs so we have learned to make the association. —Wahoofive (talk) 00:49, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. There's an article on Lydian mode, but no mention of the misbehaviour of wicked yoofs. The Chinese musicology article describes a different type of scale, and how a switch equivalent to major to minor is made - I wonder does the "culturally conditioned" theory apply to traditional Chinese music too? Is there an article that explains all this, just the way I want, now, immediately? Or any suggestions for a heading to consult in Britannica?--shtove 11:57, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

WP's music articles are pretty weak. Doctine of affections would be a good example to look up in the New Grove.—Wahoofive (talk) 20:40, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It would at least be nice to have a mention of the general "trend" that minor songs are more likely to sound "sad" than major - well, I've worded this sentence awfully, but you know what I mean! 86.17.153.55 00:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Songs being in a major or minor key

If I remember correctly from my music lessons, whether a song was described being in a major and minor key firstly was based on how the song ended, and not necessarily how it began.

Don't forget to sign your posts with ~~~~. Pretty much true, but be careful, because of the Picardy third. Also, this article isn't necessarily only about keys, but about scales, intervals, and other aspects of music. —Wahoofive (talk) 04:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

a particular passage's key is identified by cadences, not how it ends or begins — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.61.151.13 (talk) 13:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Diatonic and chromatic

The present article is concerned with centrally important concepts and terms in music theory. The terms "chromatic" and "diatonic" are connected to "major" and "minor", but they rarely get proper explanation. They are the cause of serious uncertainties at several Wikipedia articles, and in the broader literature. Some of us thought that both terms needed special coverage, so we started up a new article: Diatonic and chromatic. Why not have a look, and join the discussion? Be ready to have comfortable assumptions challenged! – Noetica^♬♩ Talk 00:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interpreting

See discussion at Talk:Major_chord#Feelings. Hyacinth (talk) 00:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First paragraph

Could someone make this sentence clearer for those of us who don't "speak music"?

To find the minor chord from a major chord, simply go down a third. For example, the relative minor of G major - G>F>E - would be E minor. To find the major chord from a minor, go up a relative third; for example, the relative major of F Minor - F>G>Ab - would be Ab major.

What I don't find clear are what "G>F>E" means and how I am supposed to read it - G greater than F greater than E? Also, does Ab mean a word I don't know - "Ab" or does it mean A flat?

Please be patient with those of us who don't speak music. If you can explain this, please add it to the article. Much appreciated. DBlomgren (talk) 15:02, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First paragraph formerly began "In music of the Western common practice period, ...". If I'm not mistaken, majors and minors are still in use and have little, if anything, to do with the common practice period (1600-1900). I'm changing it to simply "In Western music ..." If you think that there should be some reference to the common practice period in this article, then find some place other than the introductory sentence for it, and cite an inline reference. Dlw20070716 (talk) 23:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Re-structure

I began to tweak the article... and came to realise how confused it all was! The concepts of 'key' and 'scale' were being used interchangeably and sometimes incorrectly, and the material was clearly in need of structural reworking. So my recent set of edits has, I hope, preserved all the material, but significantly reworked it with just enough editorial redaction so the new form hangs together. More work is probably still needed. Feline Hymnic (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

The last paragraph on this page, as of today, needs to be edited so as to more clearly distinguish the several concepts involved in the complex expression as it exists. Perhaps listing the elemental concepts contained, then expressing the relationships would help. Thanks. Lor (talk) 18:24, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Modes

I wonder if the terms major and minor also apply to modes (other than Ionian and Aeolian). Is it possible to consider Locrian, Phrygian and Dorian as modes of minor tonality and Lydian and Mixolydian as such of major tonality? Or is every mode a gender on its own? --PeterTrompeter (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fifty years ago it was pretty common to classify all church modes as major or minor based on the quality of the third degree — even to treat them as variants of the major/minor scales — but that's fallen out of fashion. No doubt you could find some book or other which continues to propagate this idea, but it's no longer common. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The section Relation to musical "mode"

This section states that "Contrastingly, changes of mode, which would involve the alteration of the third, and mode mixture, are often analyzed as minor or trivial changes unless structurally supported because the root and overall key and tonality remain unchanged. This is in contrast with, for instance, modulation or transposition. These latter operations are done by moving all intervals up or down a certain constant interval, and does change key, but does not change mode, which requires the alteration of intervals."

Modulation does not require that all intervals be moved up or down a certain constant interval, and thus it is also not true that it never changes mode. A modulation from A major to D minor, for example, would be changing modes (major to minor, or Ionian to Aeolian if you like), and would also be more involved than simply shifting the major scale "up" to the new root D, since that would be a modulation from A major to D major, rather than to D minor. Transposition does however mean that you are changing the key but keeping the same mode, but the term is not interchangeable with modulation, the two are different, though related, concepts. Just to slam the point home, I'll give you an example of how you might modulate from A major to D minor, and that would be to use the A chord as a vehicle to getting to D minor in the form of an authentic cadence, that is, the A chord becomes the V chord in D minor. (gasp) Ais orson (talk) 14:13, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Too advanced

The article is too advanced to be useful to someone (like myself) who comes to it looking for a basic understanding. It assumes too much is already known (IMO).

I wish I knew enough to rewrite but I do not. CBHA (talk) 23:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree; way too advanced. I can't make heads or tails of this; it's written assuming that the reader already knows what it's talking about. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 03:28, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@CBHA I came here to say the same thing, I was prompted to come here having seen Bill Bailey do his major and minor bit one more time, and I'm still none the wiser. The top section of the page is supposed to be a simple overview of the subject. I remain utterly befuddled. Dahamsta (talk) 08:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's very typical of Wikipedia. If you aren't already well-versed oin a subject, don't bother looking here for basic information. Even when an article was written to include basics to help beginners grasp the subject, they are quickly filled up by dense masses of jargon and detailed technical information that help the 3rd year wrting it feel smart and knowledeable, but completely obscure the meaning of the article to thoser of us who aren't already enrolled in that particular course. Wikipedia: great place for brushing up on what yuou already knew about, and for fixing other people's wild errors, but not so good for actually educating anyone in a new subject.

Idumea47b (talk) 06:02, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Intonation ratios

I think that the first interval (under "D" in the table) should be 10/9, not 9/8. I don't know if there is a source that confirms it, as it is just my own impression, but I think there is good justification. Stated most simply, the 9/8 makes the intervals D-F and D-A be 32/27 and 40/27, respectively. While 10/9 makes them 6/5 and 3/2. It's true that the change makes D-G worse (4/3 to 27/20), but that isn't as big a change, and the error is "simpler," as the text claims it is supposed to be.

The real reason, however, is more complicated (and may be best seen in the table below). Note that most of the minor scale can be constructed by starting with the tonic, fourth, and fifth at 1, 4/3 and 3/2, respectively. Above each of those notes, we can insert a perfect minor third (6/5) to get most of the minor scale. The second, B, is the only note missing; using 9/8 makes the next half-interval 16/15 as we want.

We can do the same to get most of the major scale by inserting a perfect major third (5/4) above the tonic, fourth, and fifth. The second can be formed either 9/8 or 10/9; whichever you choose, the interval from D to E will be the other. HOWEVER, if we try to match this to the constructed minor scale by making its "C" the tonic, every note is the same if we use 10/9.

So essentially, I'm suggesting altering table to include both scales, and the steps:

Scale	A	B	C	D	E	F	G	A	B	C
Major			1	10/9	5/4	4/3	3/2	5/3	15/8	2
Minor	1	9/8	6/5	4/3	3/2	8/5	9/5	2
(Step Interval)		9/8	16/15	10/9	9/8	16/15	9/8	10/9	9/8	16/15

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"Darker" music

I think it should be masde very clear that this whole thing about minor-scale music being "darker" and "more melancholy" is only a matter of popular perception, and so people now often choose the scale to emphasize the "dark" feel of a piece they are writing. Anyone who is familiar with The Sacred Harp, or other shape note song books is well-aware that it is perfectly possible to write cheerful, upbeat music to minor scale, and dark, somber music to major scale. There are many cheerful, or at least energectic and exuberant minor-scale songs in the Sacred Harp, as the minor scale was almsot as popular with song-writers as the major scale was 150 years ago. Perhaps minor scale _assists_ a song writer who wants a melancholy piece of music, but it doesn't mean that every song written in the minor scale automatically comes out sounding sad, black and depressing. We are talking about a relatively subtle difference here. This whole notion that "minor key is dark music" is completely a modern idea, as far as I know.

Idumea47b (talk) 06:09, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 18:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Major and minor → Major and minor (music) – With respect to music, this is really a pair of adjectives; the phrase taken by itself seems more likely to refer to academic majors and minors. I would disambiguate this title between these meanings. BD2412 T 17:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 15:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose. Creating a disambiguation page for only 2 (technically 3) entries is usually unnecessary. I think the hatnote works fine in this case. But if others think disambiguation is necessary, I would suggest using some form of natural disambiguation such as Major and minor in music. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:00, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Rreagan007: There are other things divided along the same lines. Major and minor sports leagues (Major league/Minor league), major and minor suits of cards (Major suit/Minor suit). BD2412 T 05:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
support suggest major and minor in music, since it is a descriptive title. Also create a set index per nom at the current location -- 65.92.247.90 (talk) 21:53, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- It wouldn't be a set index; the topics are truly ambiguous. BD2412 T 01:38, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Undecided on the original proposal, but definitely oppose Major and minor in music because I don't really think of "major" and "minor" as general concepts that exist in music, baseball, and bridge of which you can narrow down to one specific domain. There is nothing similar between the meaning of major/minor in these three domains beyond the superficial. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Music theory has been notified of this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 15:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article in general requires some serious TLC. I think the scope of the article could use some hemming in with the change also, having an article about 'adjectives' per se is not good. I would suggest Major and minor tonalities, which is a slightly narrower sense than the named intervals: minor/major second, etc. Remsense聊 15:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – Unnecessary. There are any number of major/minor concepts, but none of them have an article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:02, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I still think the current sense is too vague, and the specification suggested above would be helpful internally, if not between articles. Remsense聊 02:20, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It does not refer primarily to "academic majors and minors". The musical term is the primary topic here. — Amakuru (talk) 13:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.